Was He Really That Good?

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

H everyone,

Was Rogan Josh really that good a stayer? I think he is a glorified handiapper. Was he really that good in WA before heading east, maybe or maybe not.

Apart from his Melbourne Cup win, I think that was his only Group 1?

Since his Melbourne Cup win I think there has been other WA stayers who have been better but didnt have the oppotnities that Rogan Josh got. Like Guyno, Lords Ransom. Tumeric and others for example.

I know Bart made him a better horse but I'm not sure why Bart took him on to be honest. I remember seeing Bart at Ascot on Perth Cup day in 1999, I had no idea that RJ's owner was planning on asking Bart to train him.

PC · July 2011

Skywest_Airlines, I found these races on youtube. Check them out - they may change your opinion of Rogan Josh. He wasn't a champion stayer but a very handy stayer indeed and certainly WA's best 2-miler in while.

In WA he won the Group 3 Bumbury Cup and Listed Pinjarra Cup and also got 2nd in 1999 Perth Cup - beaten by short neck, 4th in the Caulfield Cup and went overseas and got 4th in the Hong Kong Vase at 2400m.

His best win in my opinion was the Mackinnon Stakes as it was at WFA. Also its still the second fastest Mackinnon time as well.

He was a better horse under Bart's care but was very handy when trained by Colin Webster and Bart did have a pretty good opinion of him and that's why he took him in when he was asked to train him.

1999 Group 2 Herbert Power Stakes:

1999 Group 1 Caulfield Cup:

1999 Group 1 Mackinnon Stakes:

1999 Group 1 Melbourne Cup:

Cheers,
PC.

thefalcon · July 2011

Skywest, Does Jeff Chatfield know you are using his airline as your screen name.
Added to the inane comments...he would not be very happy....
I'll be seeing him soon.... :P

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
Skywest, Does Jeff Chatfield know you are using his airline as your screen name.
Added to the inane comments...he would not be very happy....
I'll be seeing him soon.... :P

Falcon how are my comments insane? Do you not agree with me? A glorified handicapper is what he was. Simple.

Precision · July 2011

Have we not had this topic before and no one agreed with you?

You want to know what insane comments you have made? Lets just pick the most obvious one........."I'm not sure why Bart took him on to be honest"

Did you watch any of PC's replays? They might be a hint but if you didn't get it he won a Melbourne cup with him!!!!!!!

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
Have we not had this topic before and no one agreed with you?

You want to know what insane comments you have made? Lets just pick the most obvious one........."I'm not sure why Bart took him on to be honest"

Did you watch any of PC's replays? They might be a hint but if you didn't get it he won a Melbourne cup with him!!!!!!!

Yeah but Precsion he was a handicapper and there have been so many other stayers such as Cat's Fun, Guyno, Tumeric, Lord's Ransom, King Canute, King OF Saxony etc that are at least 10 lengths better than Rogan Josh. I mean Rogan Josh was a country galloper, does that not tell you how shockingly bad he was or are you blind?

PC · July 2011

Fair dinkum Skywest how about you watch those replays that I put on the forum. Or do you think they are made up?

Cmon can't you see that he was a handy stayer? And comparing Rogan Josh to those other Perth Cup winners you have mentioned - well its enough to make me laugh.

How about I put it this way: Ignore those staying races that I have put on here and just look at his Mackinnon Stakes win, then work out if those other stayers you have mentioned would be able to do that. Then come back with a decent answer.

WA racing is always in the shadow of Melbourne and Sydney racing and it's hard enough as it is for a WA horse to go east and be competitive and even harder for a WA horse to head east and win and here you are bagging Rogan Josh who went east and was competitive and WON.

Rogan Josh was the start of a good era of WA horses doing well in the eastern states because Northerly, Bomber Bill, Miss Andretti, Scenic Shot, Scenic Blast, Plastered and Hay List all headed east and did the same.

OH but hang on, you may as well bag them too.

Cheers,
PC.

thefalcon · July 2011

He's stirring precision...nobody could be that bloody stupid...or could they.. :roll: ??

Skywest, u haven't answered my ? re yr screen name..

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
He's stirring precision...nobody could be that bloody stupid...or could they.. :roll: ??

Skywest, u haven't answered my ? re yr screen name..

I'm not stirring. I genuinly think he was a glorified handicapper. Was only good because Bart made him good. Was ordinary when he ran in Perth, unless someone can prove me wrong.

I have this screename because they are a good airline.

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
Fair dinkum Skywest how about you watch those replays that I put on the forum. Or do you think they are made up?

Cmon can't you see that he was a handy stayer? And comparing Rogan Josh to those other Perth Cup winners you have mentioned - well its enough to make me laugh.

How about I put it this way: Ignore those staying races that I have put on here and just look at his Mackinnon Stakes win, then work out if those other stayers you have mentioned would be able to do that. Then come back with a decent answer.

WA racing is always in the shadow of Melbourne and Sydney racing and it's hard enough as it is for a WA horse to go east and be competitive and even harder for a WA horse to head east and win and here you are bagging Rogan Josh who went east and was competitive and WON.

Rogan Josh was the start of a good era of WA horses doing well in the eastern states because Northerly, Bomber Bill, Miss Andretti, Scenic Shot, Scenic Blast, Plastered and Hay List all headed east and did the same.

OH but hang on, you may as well bag them too.

Cheers,
PC.

I saw the Mackinnon win. Good win, came from 3rd or 4th last and came home but only won by 3/4 of a length, if he was really good he would have won by more. Those other horses would win by more.

TheFunkster · July 2011

LMFAO! :lol:

thefalcon · July 2011

ROFL....is this guy for real?
Skywest...go to the function on Sat and we'll have a debate...
refer Ultimate Challenge thread for details... :roll:

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
ROFL....is this guy for real?
Skywest...go to the function on Sat and we'll have a debate...
refer Ultimate Challenge thread for details... :roll:

Cant find the thread. So I win the debate. Simple.

thefalcon · July 2011

OK..game over..you had us fooled...now tell us it ws all a big stir.. :lol:

Go to Belmont on Sat..Sportsmans Bar, near the bookies ring..I think there will be a cordoned off area..thats where its at. game?

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

and what are we gonna do there? Debate or try and win some money?

I wont be able to make it but I might go sometime.

PC · July 2011

said:
OK..game over..you had us fooled...now tell us it ws all a big stir.. :lol:

Go to Belmont on Sat..Sportsmans Bar, near the bookies ring..I think there will be a cordoned off area..thats where its at. game?

Is this invitation open to other people? I wouldnt mind going sometime, have a feed and chat to you people about racing and maybe win a few dollars along the way. Sounds like a good day out actually.

Cheers,
PC.

thefalcon · July 2011

All members are welcome, PC....there will be more details later in the week.
just keep 20 bucks in your sock for a worthy cause..seriously..

PC · July 2011

said:
All members are welcome, PC....there will be more details later in the week.
just keep 20 bucks in your sock for a worthy cause..seriously..

Thanks for the info mate. Sounds good.

Cheers,
PC.

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

Still think Rogan Josh is a glorified handicapper but that's my opinion. Pity others dont see it the same way as me.

[DeletedUser] · July 2011

Whats it matter anyway. He did what he did, any one of us would of loved to own him. You seem to have an agenda there Skywest, wasn't an early owner in the horse by any chance ? :lol: Sold out too early :lol:

Vorgtraffic · July 2011

He was almost as good as the mighty barakey

darkshines · July 2011

Can't believe this thread has got so far in . . . he's clearly taking the piss surely

For those who don't remember, this is the bloke who loved Guyno

Littlefilly · July 2011

What does it matter if people dont see it the same way as you??? Whats going to happen if someone agrees? You'll get the Melb Cup taken off him?? For gods sake the horse has been retired for ten years. He won a Mackinnon and a Melb Cup. Any owner in their right mind would want to own him and any trainer would want to train him. Simple as that.

Let sleeping dogs lie and go dribble **** somewhere else. PTT is usually a great read.... Dont ruin that for the majority here :lol:

PC · July 2011

Skywest,

Rogan Josh had 38 Starts: 13-6-2

Of those 38 starts his Group/Listed record was: 19 Starts: 5-3-2

His best minor performances were:

4th - 1999 Group 1 Hong Kong Vase at 2400m WFA
4th - 1999 Group 1 Caulfield Cup at 2400m
3rd - 1999 Group 2 Sandown Classic at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 2 Perth Cup at 3200m
2nd - 1998 Group 2 C.B Cox Stakes at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 3 Bunbury Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Group 3 Strickland Stakes at 1800m WFA
3rd - 1999 Listed Pinjarra Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Listed A.T.A Handicap at 2200m

His major wins were:

1999 G1 Melbourne Cup (3200m hcp)
1999 G1 Mackinnon Stakes (2000m WFA)
1999 G2 Herbert Power Stakes (2400m hcp)
1998 G3 Bunbury Cup (2200m hcp)
1998 Listed Pinjarra Cup (2200m hcp)

So Skywest, I know your not being silly, I know your genuninly dont like Rogan Josh or rate him for whatever reason that have baffled all of us but you go and finda recent WA stayer who has a better record than that = no sorry you cant cos there hasn't been anyone better and those Perth Cup winners who you mentioned are at not even close to Rogan Josh.

I mean Fair Dinkum Rogan Josh's record is better than horses like Subzero, Tawrrific, Jezabeel, Brew, What A Nuisance, Kensei - if anyone is a "glorified handicapper" as you call it then its these stayers - none of them won at Group 1 WFA level although Tawrrific did win the C.B Cox Stakes at Group 2 level.

If your comments are in relation to Rogan Josh in terms of class then yes you are correct - to some extent but he wasnt completely a hack and also he wasnt some light weight hack that won the Melbourne Cup - he had good form leading into his Cup win and the reason for his light weight was cos the handicapper didnt have the oppotunity to penalise him.

Your honestly making yourself look like a fool now.

Skywest - look at those facts above. You lose. Thanks.

Oh and while im at it Skywest Rogan Josh won $2,683,692 prizemoney which in todays money is roughly $4.5mil to $5mil, not bad for a horse who you say is a "glorified handicapper"

Cheers,
PC.

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
Whats it matter anyway. He did what he did, any one of us would of loved to own him. You seem to have an agenda there Skywest, wasn't an early owner in the horse by any chance ? :lol: Sold out too early :lol:

No I wasn't Wendy Greens brother Marcus who sold out. What he did was no good. Wish I owned him.

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
What does it matter if people dont see it the same way as you??? Whats going to happen if someone agrees? You'll get the Melb Cup taken off him?? For gods sake the horse has been retired for ten years. He won a Mackinnon and a Melb Cup. Any owner in their right mind would want to own him and any trainer would want to train him. Simple as that.

Let sleeping dogs lie and go dribble **** somewhere else. PTT is usually a great read.... Dont ruin that for the majority here :lol:

Im not ruining it, im simply having my say.

Skywest_Airlines · July 2011

said:
Skywest,

Rogan Josh had 38 Starts: 13-6-2

Of those 38 starts his Group/Listed record was: 19 Starts: 5-3-2

His best minor performances were:

4th - 1999 Group 1 Hong Kong Vase at 2400m WFA
4th - 1999 Group 1 Caulfield Cup at 2400m
3rd - 1999 Group 2 Sandown Classic at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 2 Perth Cup at 3200m
2nd - 1998 Group 2 C.B Cox Stakes at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 3 Bunbury Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Group 3 Strickland Stakes at 1800m WFA
3rd - 1999 Listed Pinjarra Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Listed A.T.A Handicap at 2200m

His major wins were:

1999 G1 Melbourne Cup (3200m hcp)
1999 G1 Mackinnon Stakes (2000m WFA)
1999 G2 Herbert Power Stakes (2400m hcp)
1998 G3 Bunbury Cup (2200m hcp)
1998 Listed Pinjarra Cup (2200m hcp)

So Skywest, I know your not being silly, I know your genuninly dont like Rogan Josh or rate him for whatever reason that have baffled all of us but you go and finda recent WA stayer who has a better record than that = no sorry you cant cos there hasn't been anyone better and those Perth Cup winners who you mentioned are at not even close to Rogan Josh.

I mean Fair Dinkum Rogan Josh's record is better than horses like Subzero, Tawrrific, Jezabeel, Brew, What A Nuisance, Kensei - if anyone is a "glorified handicapper" as you call it then its these stayers - none of them won at Group 1 WFA level although Tawrrific did win the C.B Cox Stakes at Group 2 level.

If your comments are in relation to Rogan Josh in terms of class then yes you are correct - to some extent but he wasnt completely a hack and also he wasnt some light weight hack that won the Melbourne Cup - he had good form leading into his Cup win and the reason for his light weight was cos the handicapper didnt have the oppotunity to penalise him.

Your honestly making yourself look like a fool now.

Skywest - look at those facts above. You lose. Thanks.

Oh and while im at it Skywest Rogan Josh won $2,683,692 prizemoney which in todays money is roughly $4.5mil to $5mil, not bad for a horse who you say is a "glorified handicapper"

Cheers,
PC.

And did it ever occur to you PC that Rogan Josh only won the Melbourne Cup because he had 50kg which is a luxury weight and got 4th in the Caulfield Cup as he had 51.5kg, once again a luxury weight.

Your facts are so very wrong.

[DeletedUser] · July 2011

Come on Marcus, you said you would loved to of owned him. So why the comments against him ?

PC · July 2011

said:

said:
Skywest,

Rogan Josh had 38 Starts: 13-6-2

Of those 38 starts his Group/Listed record was: 19 Starts: 5-3-2

His best minor performances were:

4th - 1999 Group 1 Hong Kong Vase at 2400m WFA
4th - 1999 Group 1 Caulfield Cup at 2400m
3rd - 1999 Group 2 Sandown Classic at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 2 Perth Cup at 3200m
2nd - 1998 Group 2 C.B Cox Stakes at 2400m WFA
2nd - 1999 Group 3 Bunbury Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Group 3 Strickland Stakes at 1800m WFA
3rd - 1999 Listed Pinjarra Cup at 2200m
4th - 1998 Listed A.T.A Handicap at 2200m

His major wins were:

1999 G1 Melbourne Cup (3200m hcp)
1999 G1 Mackinnon Stakes (2000m WFA)
1999 G2 Herbert Power Stakes (2400m hcp)
1998 G3 Bunbury Cup (2200m hcp)
1998 Listed Pinjarra Cup (2200m hcp)

So Skywest, I know your not being silly, I know your genuninly dont like Rogan Josh or rate him for whatever reason that have baffled all of us but you go and finda recent WA stayer who has a better record than that = no sorry you cant cos there hasn't been anyone better and those Perth Cup winners who you mentioned are at not even close to Rogan Josh.

I mean Fair Dinkum Rogan Josh's record is better than horses like Subzero, Tawrrific, Jezabeel, Brew, What A Nuisance, Kensei - if anyone is a "glorified handicapper" as you call it then its these stayers - none of them won at Group 1 WFA level although Tawrrific did win the C.B Cox Stakes at Group 2 level.

If your comments are in relation to Rogan Josh in terms of class then yes you are correct - to some extent but he wasnt completely a hack and also he wasnt some light weight hack that won the Melbourne Cup - he had good form leading into his Cup win and the reason for his light weight was cos the handicapper didnt have the oppotunity to penalise him.

Your honestly making yourself look like a fool now.

Skywest - look at those facts above. You lose. Thanks.

Oh and while im at it Skywest Rogan Josh won $2,683,692 prizemoney which in todays money is roughly $4.5mil to $5mil, not bad for a horse who you say is a "glorified handicapper"

Cheers,
PC.

And did it ever occur to you PC that Rogan Josh only won the Melbourne Cup because he had 50kg which is a luxury weight and got 4th in the Caulfield Cup as he had 51.5kg, once again a luxury weight.

Your facts are so very wrong.

Yes correct Skywest, spot on - Rogan Josh did have a luxury weight in both the Caulfield and Melbourne Cup (and with a better ride, he should have also won the Caulfield Cup) but that doesnt make him as bad as you say he is.

Handicap racing is all about beating the handicapper both with a light weight or a heavy weight.

Also - if you had stopped to read my earlier posts I did say to you in regards to those youtube races to ignore those staying races and watch his Mackinnon win. That win wasnt with a light weight - that was with 58kg at WFA and as I said the time was 2:00.34 - still the second fastest Mackinnon time.

Not every single light weight winner of a Cup staying race is no good - some are and some are not. You also have to realise that Rogan Josh also had form at 3200m before his Cup win as he got 2nd in the Perth Cup and while that 2nd place was with 52.5kg, it signalled that he was a handy stayer. Not many Melbourne Cup winners these days have prior form at 3200m before winning the Melbourne Cup.

Hoppe all of this makes sense.

Cheers,
PC.

Hitman · July 2011

:annoyed:

BoganJosh · July 2011

this entire thread is probably the most useless thread on the site (open for debate as im unsure if Della's nickname threads still exist)

said:
unless someone can prove me wrong.

its an opinion, you cant prove yourself right (and gee you've tried) and we cant prove you wrong (so thanks for doing most of the work for us)

said:

And did it ever occur to you PC that Rogan Josh only won the Melbourne Cup because he had 50kg which is a luxury weight and got 4th in the Caulfield Cup as he had 51.5kg, once again a luxury weight.

Your facts are so very wrong.

the FACT is that my namesake won with the weight he was allocated. he WON with the weight given which - done his job!

i'd hate to be in the head of a bloke hung up about a race 11 years ago!

cop it sweet!

G'day Punter!

In this Discussion

Who's Online

Was He Really That Good?

Comments