GP- Nights Of Thunder Final & Busselton Cup

VillageKid · January 2023

GP

Race 1- Rocknroll Elliot, Eton Rock, Vulcan Star, Armed Reactor

Race 2- Valentines Brook, Mirragon, Lucky Galleon, Manning

Race 3- Handsandwheels, Machnificent, Mea Culpa, Rockaball

Race 4- Ragazzo Mach, Lavra Joe, Sangue Reale, Wildwest

Race 5- Pinny Tiger, Tenzing Bromac, Orlando Blue, Talks Up A Storm

Race 6- Shadow Roll, Special Lady, Sameplace Sametime, Whoswhointhezoo

Race 7- Im Themightylucy, Cherishthememories, Miss Boudica, Beyond The Sea

Race 8- Master Yossi, Carrera Mach, Athabascan, Joe With The Flow

Race 9- Bronzed, Lucapelo, Imperium, Telkem Jay

Race 10- Patched, Sky Eagle, Papa Razzi, Chumani

Busselton

R1- Mybrotherskeeper

R2- Arden Velocity

R3- Alfa Prince

R4- Emjay Twenty Three

R5- Hi Tommy

R6- Hope

R7- The Running Camel

curmudgeon · January 2023

You're bounced straight to the front in the 2023 Best Clubman award on here VK :)

Markovina · January 2023

Looking at both meetings last night - i thought the value runner was Mega Mach in the Busso Cup

Last night on TAB.COM it was $8 - i see now its $9

It was a tremendous run last week when it bungled the SS Start - but the run before that it began very well

It is Rods in standing starts - its a bit like Welcolme Advice backi in the day - it will either step or make a complete hash of it

But $9 in an 8 horse field is very enticing

Gilgamesh · January 2023

R1 No1 I though Baltic ace would lead and win and had got out to a very nice price now.

R3: No4 Mia Culpa. Just a small bet, i think they can whiz to the top but they may not agree.

R4 No5 Vampiro. Just a very small bet this time,again thought he could lead.

R5 No5 Classic Choice place. Got out to around $5 now, I thought he was a huge place chance. Back and off the fence I think k is where you want to be to place rather than chacing-different when they run from the get go as opposed to walk and run.

R6 No1 Sameplace Sametime. Love the driver engagement. Be great if it could lead, probably can't but happy to be on EW leading or back on the fence.

R8 No10 Athabascan. Better known as a front runner but I feel in this line up with them running a bit early his strength can see him in the finish.

Good luck all.

sonny · January 2023

A bit stiff last night Gilga.. Thanks for your input and also to Marko...

AbbysAce · January 2023

Great call by Ritchie Bell last night on Pinny Tiger.

Didnt even mention it was a track record.

Obviously didnt know and doesnt care.

curmudgeon · January 2023

On displayed form from last night Pinny Tiger, Sangue Reale & Vampiro are all worthy of a place in the Pacing Cup.

VillageKid · January 2023

I would also add Mighty Conqueror from last week too Curmudgeon.

On the contrary Wildwest & Prince Of Pleasure now look vulnerable whilst Lavra Joe & Vultan Tin may also be under some pressure to maintain a start in next weeks WA Pacing Cup final field?

Markovina · January 2023

Just got back home and watched a replay of Busso cup - hadnt had a chance to see it yet

JayJays horse ran a bold race - 2nd

Bussleton is a bit deceptive-the TV angle - i know it is a tiny straight - however - how many times -like that race - 20 metres to go the outside horse with all the momentum is a certain winner - however 9 times out of 10 the inside horse hangs on and wins

Re GP - that was a genuine Free for All - and the time 1.53 - as for the Pacing Cup - i agree with Gilga - Minstrel is racing in peak form - he said there is $15 on offer somewhere - if it draws gate 1 it will be evens

Markovina · January 2023

AbbysAce said:
Great call by Ritchie Bell last night on Pinny Tiger.

Didnt even mention it was a track record.

Obviously didnt know and doesnt care.

I watched a replay of that race - you mention it broke the track record - however on face value - given the quality of the field - i didnt think it was that impressive - the 2nd part of my post - i will make a comment about the time

M Grantham i rate him highly ( a few on this board dont like him ) but i have allways rated him very highly - and the simple reason that horse clung on and won - was Grantham i would on Frid night was the lightest Mens driver their - looking at him in the cart - and he is an ex jockey - i reckon he is 7 stone tops . I do follow the Eastern States - Anthony Butt was a top driver - and looking at him presently ( he drove in the Ballarat Cup ) he has become pretty big - i reckon he is 12 stone maybe more . Bottom line - put A Butt in the cart behind Pinny Tiger Frid night and it gets beat - the Gordon Rothacker theory of 55 years ago - which for some bizarre reason - some participants still cant grasp

Now the point about the times run on Frid night. . Last week i mentioned about changing the gait of a free for all pacer to a trotter - i got heavily criticised by one poster - but i relied on a precedent - and that was a champion horseman ( not a trainer a horseman - there is a big difference ) Geoff Webster - who actually did it - and won several group ones as a trotter

Now - the exceptionally quick times run Frid night - the precedent i will rely on - another champion horseman ( and also a beautifully balanced driver ) Grant Williams

When Grant was involved in harness racing - at one particular point ( after 2 back to back GP meetings - might have been a Frid night and a mid weeker ) he was scathing in the GP track - he said they have prepared the track for those 2 meetings - ridiculously fast - and as a result they have run ridiclous quick time/mile rates

I think what Grant said - there might have been a touch of that in play Frid night - Vampiro - Brown served it up to the leader - theve run 28 middle qtrs - it worked like a Trojan - breezing - ran 4th - beaten a touch over 6 metres - and they have gone 1.53 for 2100 - Vampiro cant do that - it simply cant do that - my opinion - i would be very wary of some of those times run Frid night

Rocket_Reign · January 2023

Markovina said:

AbbysAce said:
Great call by Ritchie Bell last night on Pinny Tiger.

Didnt even mention it was a track record.

Obviously didnt know and doesnt care.

I watched a replay of that race - you mention it broke the track record - however on face value - given the quality of the field - i didnt think it was that impressive - the 2nd part of my post - i will make a comment about the time

M Grantham i rate him highly ( a few on this board dont like him ) but i have allways rated him very highly - and the simple reason that horse clung on and won - was Grantham i would on Frid night was the lightest Mens driver their - looking at him in the cart - and he is an ex jockey - i reckon he is 7 stone tops . I do follow the Eastern States - Anthony Butt was a top driver - and looking at him presently ( he drove in the Ballarat Cup ) he has become pretty big - i reckon he is 12 stone maybe more . Bottom line - put A Butt in the cart behind Pinny Tiger Frid night and it gets beat - the Gordon Rothacker theory of 55 years ago - which for some bizarre reason - some participants still cant grasp

Now the point about the times run on Frid night. . Last week i mentioned about changing the gait of a free for all pacer to a trotter - i got heavily criticised by one poster - but i relied on a precedent - and that was a champion horseman ( not a trainer a horseman - there is a big difference ) Geoff Webster - who actually did it - and won several group ones as a trotter

Now - the exceptionally quick times run Frid night - the precedent i will rely on - another champion horseman ( and also a beautifully balanced driver ) Grant Williams

When Grant was involved in harness racing - at one particular point ( after 2 back to back GP meetings - might have been a Frid night and a mid weeker ) he was scathing in the GP track - he said they have prepared the track for those 2 meetings - ridiculously fast - and as a result they have run ridiclous quick time/mile rates

I think what Grant said - there might have been a touch of that in play Frid night - Vampiro - Brown served it up to the leader - theve run 28 middle qtrs - it worked like a Trojan - breezing - ran 4th - beaten a touch over 6 metres - and they have gone 1.53 for 2100 - Vampiro cant do that - it simply cant do that - my opinion - i would be very wary of some of those times run Frid night

Jesus you talk some absolute dribble you need to come out into the horse world and see what it’s like

Arapaho · January 2023

For the record Vampiro has a winning mile rate of 1.52.6 over 2130m which he achieved in the Pat Cranley Memorial {gr2} ,5 starts ago in Jan.2022.

He also has a winning rate of 1.54.1 over 2536m, ran 1.54.3 over that distance when beaten 0.5 metres when 2nd in a Fremantle Cup and then rated 1.56.5 when beaten a head in a WA Pacing Cup over 2936m.

Vampiro is a very good horse who along with those placings in the 2 Cups and his win in the Cranley, has won a Village Kid Sprint, Mt Eden Sprint, James Brennan Memorial

Howard Porter Memorial, Pinjarra Cup, J P Stratton Cup and 2 August Cups,plus numerous fast class races..

Overall Vampiro's record is 86 sts for 29 wins,18 seconds and 9 thirds,he has won $687,964

is a L15 with a HWO of $330,201 and a national rating of 116.

Now my question would be, how does a horse like Prince of Pleasure{who by the way could make the grade in time} was rated higher then Vampiro in the Freo Cup,and in ratings that were released for WA Pacing Cup

.

Prince Of Pleasure's record is 22 sts for 8 wins 4 seconds 0 thirds he has won $79,374

is a L10 with a HWO of $44,256 and a national rating of 90

.

He has never won a fast class race and in fact, his L rating and HWO in real terms, says he still is a couple wins short of reaching that class.

His last win was in a L7/9 with a HWO of less than $40,000 which is basically a MO.

Markovina · January 2023

Arapaho said:
For the record Vampiro has a winning mile rate of 1.52.6 over 2130m which he achieved in the Pat Cranley Memorial {gr2} ,5 starts ago in Jan.2022.

He also has a winning rate of 1.54.1 over 2536m, ran 1.54.3 over that distance when beaten 0.5 metres when 2nd in a Fremantle Cup and then rated 1.56.5 when beaten a head in a WA Pacing Cup over 2936m.

Vampiro is a very good horse who along with those placings in the 2 Cups and his win in the Cranley, has won a Village Kid Sprint, Mt Eden Sprint, James Brennan Memorial
Howard Porter Memorial, Pinjarra Cup, J P Stratton Cup and 2 August Cups,plus numerous fast class races..
Overall Vampiro's record is 86 sts for 29 wins,18 seconds and 9 thirds,he has won $687,964
is a L15 with a HWO of $330,201 and a national rating of 116.

Now my question would be, how does a horse like Prince of Pleasure{who by the way could make the grade in time} was rated higher then Vampiro in the Freo Cup,and in ratings that were released for WA Pacing Cup
.
Prince Of Pleasure's record is 22 sts for 8 wins 4 seconds 0 thirds he has won $79,374
is a L10 with a HWO of $44,256 and a national rating of 90
.
He has never won a fast class race and in fact, his L rating and HWO in real terms, says he still is a couple wins short of reaching that class.
His last win was in a L7/9 with a HWO of less than $40,000 which is basically a MO.

Thanks for the reply Arapaho - and youve gone to the trouble to put a bit of detail/content in your reply - which is exactly what a harness racing forum should be all about

Not a curt - smart alec 1 line reply - like - oh we all know who Mister Zion is - what utter rubbish - he clearly had not heard of the horse - saying that changing a free for all pacer - Group 1 winning pacer - changing the gait to a trotter - and winning group ones - and you wouldnt call it ridiculous if you were a master horseman - a trainer totally different however

Havent sat behind one for 40 years or at stable - however give me a 6 week refresher course - and most importantly give me M W Boots as an owner - bringing in ready made NZ horses - and i would instantly win races even with both eyes shut - and one arm tied behind my back

But to do something that Geoffrey Webster did - changing the gait - id have NFI how to do that

The old NZ ready made imports - they wallpaper over alot of the cracks - and Teddy Demmler podcast backs that- he made the staggering but honest admission when he was in his mid 30s - he said it was a god send - when he met Trevor Warwick staying at his property - he said Warwick re taught him how properly to train horses from A-Z - now how many Demmlers ( before he met ( T W) have we got got in the training ranks - plenty i would suggest

Now to put the icing on the cake and the cherry on top - there was a pacer called The Tiger Army - now it won The time honoured Leeton Plate in a sizzling 1.58 on a tight little track - then it raced plenty of times at Newcastle - mile races only - they would set it alight - it had plenty of speed

Now it is basically a one paced plugger - and virtually totally feucked - i wonder why that happened - hah - hah - hah

I stick to the actual facts

cisco · January 2023

Interesting that you mention Ted Demmler. I was a good friend of his late brother Rodney who passed away a few years ago. I sponsor a memorial race for Rodney each year at Warragul and had the pleasure of sitting on a table for lunch with Ted last year. Ted was glowing in praise for Trevor Warwick and Phil Coulson.

I asked Ted what he thought of the trots today. His response:

"Well mate if you won a race at Moonee Valley in the 80s you could buy a new car. If you win a race at Melton today you cannot pay the rent"

Pretty much sums up how things have changed!!

Rocket_Reign · January 2023

Markovina said:

Arapaho said:
For the record Vampiro has a winning mile rate of 1.52.6 over 2130m which he achieved in the Pat Cranley Memorial {gr2} ,5 starts ago in Jan.2022.

He also has a winning rate of 1.54.1 over 2536m, ran 1.54.3 over that distance when beaten 0.5 metres when 2nd in a Fremantle Cup and then rated 1.56.5 when beaten a head in a WA Pacing Cup over 2936m.

Vampiro is a very good horse who along with those placings in the 2 Cups and his win in the Cranley, has won a Village Kid Sprint, Mt Eden Sprint, James Brennan Memorial
Howard Porter Memorial, Pinjarra Cup, J P Stratton Cup and 2 August Cups,plus numerous fast class races..
Overall Vampiro's record is 86 sts for 29 wins,18 seconds and 9 thirds,he has won $687,964
is a L15 with a HWO of $330,201 and a national rating of 116.

Now my question would be, how does a horse like Prince of Pleasure{who by the way could make the grade in time} was rated higher then Vampiro in the Freo Cup,and in ratings that were released for WA Pacing Cup
.
Prince Of Pleasure's record is 22 sts for 8 wins 4 seconds 0 thirds he has won $79,374
is a L10 with a HWO of $44,256 and a national rating of 90
.
He has never won a fast class race and in fact, his L rating and HWO in real terms, says he still is a couple wins short of reaching that class.
His last win was in a L7/9 with a HWO of less than $40,000 which is basically a MO.
Thanks for the reply Arapaho - and youve gone to the trouble to put a bit of detail/content in your reply - which is exactly what a harness racing forum should be all about

Not a curt - smart alec 1 line reply - like - oh we all know who Mister Zion is - what utter rubbish - he clearly had not heard of the horse - saying that changing a free for all pacer - Group 1 winning pacer - changing the gait to a trotter - and winning group ones - and you wouldnt call it ridiculous if you were a master horseman - a trainer totally different however

Havent sat behind one for 40 years or at stable - however give me a 6 week refresher course - and most importantly give me M W Boots as an owner - bringing in ready made NZ horses - and i would instantly win races even with both eyes shut - and one arm tied behind my back

But to do something that Geoffrey Webster did - changing the gait - id have NFI how to do that

The old NZ ready made imports - they wallpaper over alot of the cracks - and Teddy Demmler podcast backs that- he made the staggering but honest admission when he was in his mid 30s - he said it was a god send - when he met Trevor Warwick staying at his property - he said Warwick re taught him how properly to train horses from A-Z - now how many Demmlers ( before he met ( T W) have we got got in the training ranks - plenty i would suggest

Now to put the icing on the cake and the cherry on top - there was a pacer called The Tiger Army - now it won The time honoured Leeton Plate in a sizzling 1.58 on a tight little track - then it raced plenty of times at Newcastle - mile races only - they would set it alight - it had plenty of speed

Now it is basically a one paced plugger - and virtually totally feucked - i wonder why that happened - hah - hah - hah

I stick to the actual facts

This just shows how stupid you are, of course I know who Mister Zion is anyone in the industry that pays a little attention does, there’s a few trotters here that are pacers.. yeah I know shock horror! Elish Star is a pacer.
Nice work you found a horse that didn’t do well here but it’s gone back and still not doing well so not sure what you’re implying

cisco · January 2023

My dear old Mum when She was alive always said:

If you dont have anything nice to say about someone dont say anything at all.

Markovina · January 2023

cisco said:
Interesting that you mention Ted Demmler. I was a good friend of his late brother Rodney who passed away a few years ago. I sponsor a memorial race for Rodney each year at Warragul and had the pleasure of sitting on a table for lunch with Ted last year. Ted was glowing in praise for Trevor Warwick and Phil Coulson.
I asked Ted what he thought of the trots today. His response:

"Well mate if you won a race at Moonee Valley in the 80s you could buy a new car. If you win a race at Melton today you cannot pay the rent"

Pretty much sums up how things have changed!!

RE your comments Trevor Warwick and Teddy Demmler - unfortunately because of different circumstances - they to me are the 2 forgotten champions of harness racing

Trevor Warwick went to USA - North America - dissappeared from the local scene - so people forget about him

Now i have consistently said Trever Warwick is the best ever ( and i saw plenty here - and i was in Sydney for many years - HP etc ) . And i said it long before Ted Demmler publicly said Warwick was a champion horseman and re taught everything to Demmler - so that totally franks my opinion

But Trevor Warwick was a champion reinsman as well - and his will to win - he was like Selwood captaining Geel - some blokes have just got that in them - that will to suceed

As for Teddy Demmler - look he was no stylist but very successful - hes hated on this board - simply because he is a Victorian . But Russell Roberts - the owner of Pure Steel - and very hard marker - like he sacked FRK from that horse - and even 20years later he was still scathing of Freds drive . But RR at one point - publicly said - Teddy is the best driver in the world and Phil is the best trainer in the world

Cisco - if you meet up with Teddy again - mention a pacer to him by the name of Flying Heel - that was basically Teddys 1st top horse . I can remember at the time - there was 3 gun 2 year olds - Flying Heel - Welvan - which had a massive boom on it - simply because it was the 1st foal sired by the great Welcolme Advice - and another pacer by the name of Arizona - who ended up the best of the 3 of them - won Ballarat and Geelong cups from memory

Anyhow i better go back to work - before i study the Junee form - ha - ha - ha

JayJay · January 2023

Vowed to never engage again but there is just so much factually wrong with that last post above that I can only advise to take it in with large grains of salt. Unchallenged, "he said, she said" posts from people (who have not sat behind one for 40 years but who in 6 weeks will be training winner after winner) which deviate miles and miles from actual events and factually recorded history should always be called out...... but I can't be bothered anymore. Let fiction reign supreme I say.

Markovina · January 2023

JayJay said:
Vowed to never engage again but there is just so much factually wrong with that last post above that I can only advise to take it in with large grains of salt. Unchallenged, "he said, she said" posts from people (who have not sat behind one for 40 years but who in 6 weeks will be training winner after winner) which deviate miles and miles from actual events and factually recorded history should always be called out...... but I can't be bothered anymore. Let fiction reign supreme I say.

Mate its a free world - and theres plenty to enjoy - and you can do as you please

But dont state someone is factual wrong - when they are 1000% correct - re my last post

I stated that Trevor Warwick ( the best ever ) and Demmler were forgotten champions - Trevor went to America - and Teddy got badly smashed up in a fall at Warragul - and that ended his career - that is factually correct

Ted Demmler said on his podcast on the AHR site -that meeting TB Warwick was a turning point in his career - and in Teds words a god - send - so what is factually wrong with that - Teddy said it on his podcast

Russel Roberts went on VicTV - the day after Pure Steel won the Hunter Cup defeating Rip Van Winkle - i think the name of the show was World Sport ( Cisco would now it ) and Russell said - Teddys the best driver in the world - and Phil is the best trainer in the world - so where is my error their- he went on live Vic TV and said it

I watched an Inter Dom video - covering alot of them over many years -RR was still highly critical of FRK drive in the Adel interdom final on a beaten Pure Steel - when an 18 year oldAC Lewis won on the outsider Carclew - tell me what is factually wrong with that - RR never forgave him for that - so what is factually wrong with that

Flying Heel was Ted Demmler s 1st best horse - Welvan - was the 1st son of the mighty Wellcolm Advice - Kery Clarke trained it - and Arizona who was a country cups winner and the best of the 3 of them- Bruce Barron ( Cisco might have known him) trained and drove it - what is factually wrong with that

Not that i could give a hoot - but you dont like when someone quotes someone - and their view your not fond of - FRK said 30 years ago - get rid of those horrible standing starts for good - they are a blight on trotting - and have 9 accross the front - now that might not be to your taste - - but others are allowed to quote him - because he actually said it - again factually correct

JayJay · January 2023

Against my better judgement but here goes. Who said what about Teddy and Trevor and Phil or whatever, that's opinion, no issue with that. Teddy hated? I doubt it, Teddy's driving style not appreciated, yep, probably.

Factually up the spout. Russell never sacked Fred after the Adelaide Interdominion and Pure Steel's 2nd placing. Of course, he was not happy with the drive, he ran second but FRK continued to train for him. There is little doubt the relationship was somewhat frosty but it is a myth that the split occurred after that series. The split came about over another horse, James Eden. FRK nominated and accepted for him in a drivers invitation (one of those Invite the Eastern States Drivers over type deals, common in those days). Russell took exception to FRK's actions and scratched the horse from the race leaving a prominent Eastern States Driver (John Binskin) embarrassingly without a drive. At the welcoming function, FRK informed the stewards that he would be hopping off his allocated drive to look after the visitor and all of Robert's horses were sent back the next day, including Pure Steel.

Flying Heel, best winning mile rate 2.2.3, won 32 races including (not in any order) The Queensland Sunshine Sprint, Canberra Sapling Stakes, Heat and Final Breeders Plate, NSW Breeders Plate, Heat and Final NSW Sapling Stakes, SA Derby, NSW Sires Consolation, Heat and Final SA Sires Produce Stakes, 3UZ Cup, Nyah Derby, Queensland derby Consolation, Victorian whirlwind Sprint, Heat NSW Lord Mayors Cup, Victorian Marathon, Two heats of the WA Pacing Cup and the Victorian Winfield Sprint. He was Australia's leading 2YO Stake earner with $19,975. Ted only drove him to 11 of those wins...K.Brook (7), A Douglas (5), G Wilson (4), J Alder (2) K.Webster (1) and C Pike (1). the horse won in excess of $74,000.

Arizona won 22 races in Australia, best winning mile rate 2.7.0 with G Rothaker the winning driver on every occasion. His best wins were Edgar Tatlow 2YO, a Kilmore Progressive, Warragul Cup, Geelong Cup and the Gippsland Marathon, other than the Tatlow race, nothing really top shelf. There is no record of Bruce Barron ever winning on him. He went the USA and raced for 2 seasons earning $7140 and reducing his LTR to 2.5.4 with 5 very minor wins, 3 for J Doherty and 2 for H MacInniss.

Welvan won 8 races at the Melbourne Showgrounds but nothing even at listed level.

Those are the facts and clearly Flying Heel was a vastly superior horse to Arizona. I can't recall anyone ever disputing what FRK's thoughts were on Standing Start versus Mobile Racing, he always made them very clear even when I was on the Northam Trotting Club Committee with him. In fact I think he preferred 8 horse field of one line. That is just an attempt to gaslight, distorting reality for the purposes of starting an argument. Batting somewhat less than 1000% accurate but you put whatever spin you like on things.

Markovina · January 2023

Ok i bow to your judgement - you were correct and i was wrong re Flying Heel - i did say to Cisco - that it was Teddys 1st best horse . Without looking up the actual record book - and it was over 40 years ago - i thought it was a bit of a Disco Force - a champion youngster - but not as good as an older horse - where as Arizona became a very good older horse

Then you quote poorly to enhance your arguement " There is no record of Bruce Barron winning it . Who trained it mate - oh we dont mention that do we -

Again with Welvan - terribly misquoted again - i simply said there was a massive boom on it -because it was the 1st son of Welcolme Advice - and those 3 did clash as early 2 year olds

loose_goose · January 2023

JayJay said:
Against my better judgement but here goes. Who said what about Teddy and Trevor and Phil or whatever, that's opinion, no issue with that. Teddy hated? I doubt it, Teddy's driving style not appreciated, yep, probably.

Factually up the spout. Russell never sacked Fred after the Adelaide Interdominion and Pure Steel's 2nd placing. Of course, he was not happy with the drive, he ran second but FRK continued to train for him. There is little doubt the relationship was somewhat frosty but it is a myth that the split occurred after that series. The split came about over another horse, James Eden. FRK nominated and accepted for him in a drivers invitation (one of those Invite the Eastern States Drivers over type deals, common in those days). Russell took exception to FRK's actions and scratched the horse from the race leaving a prominent Eastern States Driver (John Binskin) embarrassingly without a drive. At the welcoming function, FRK informed the stewards that he would be hopping off his allocated drive to look after the visitor and all of Robert's horses were sent back the next day, including Pure Steel.

Flying Heel, best winning mile rate 2.2.3, won 32 races including (not in any order) The Queensland Sunshine Sprint, Canberra Sapling Stakes, Heat and Final Breeders Plate, NSW Breeders Plate, Heat and Final NSW Sapling Stakes, SA Derby, NSW Sires Consolation, Heat and Final SA Sires Produce Stakes, 3UZ Cup, Nyah Derby, Queensland derby Consolation, Victorian whirlwind Sprint, Heat NSW Lord Mayors Cup, Victorian Marathon, Two heats of the WA Pacing Cup and the Victorian Winfield Sprint. He was Australia's leading 2YO Stake earner with $19,975. Ted only drove him to 11 of those wins...K.Brook (7), A Douglas (5), G Wilson (4), J Alder (2) K.Webster (1) and C Pike (1). the horse won in excess of $74,000.

Arizona won 22 races in Australia, best winning mile rate 2.7.0 with G Rothaker the winning driver on every occasion. His best wins were Edgar Tatlow 2YO, a Kilmore Progressive, Warragul Cup, Geelong Cup and the Gippsland Marathon, other than the Tatlow race, nothing really top shelf. There is no record of Bruce Barron ever winning on him. He went the USA and raced for 2 seasons earning $7140 and reducing his LTR to 2.5.4 with 5 very minor wins, 3 for J Doherty and 2 for H MacInniss.

Welvan won 8 races at the Melbourne Showgrounds but nothing even at listed level.

Those are the facts and clearly Flying Heel was a vastly superior horse to Arizona. I can't recall anyone ever disputing what FRK's thoughts were on Standing Start versus Mobile Racing, he always made them very clear even when I was on the Northam Trotting Club Committee with him. In fact I think he preferred 8 horse field of one line. That is just an attempt to gaslight, distorting reality for the purposes of starting an argument. Batting somewhat less than 1000% accurate but you put whatever spin you like on things.

Just clarifying "with him" FRK was on the committee at Northam, but was based in Perth ?

JayJay · January 2023

Correct...around 1976 or 1977. FRK was complaining to Northam President Frank Collins about something or other, probably stands or number of runners in a race. Frank challenged him to put up or shut up and join the Committee, Fred called his bluff so to speak and came onto the committee and traveled up for meetings from James Street I think it was in Cannington. Sometimes, committee met prior to the race meeting for convenience (and warmth). Good value he was. To date it precisely, I would need to look up the race record of a horse called Friskim which won at Northam at the time, maybe on Cup Night....we used to do a radio show on 6 AM doing trot tips and it was one of my rare successful tips.Fred was not keen on standing start races at the time even though he (and Bill) won dozens of them at Northam. I was the timekeeper as well as being on Committee until I transferred out employment wise at the end of 1978.

loose_goose · January 2023

JayJay said:
Correct...around 1976 or 1977. FRK was complaining to Northam President Frank Collins about something or other, probably stands or number of runners in a race. Frank challenged him to put up or shut up and join the Committee, Fred called his bluff so to speak and came onto the committee and traveled up for meetings from James Street I think it was in Cannington. Sometimes, committee met prior to the race meeting for convenience (and warmth). Good value he was. To date it precisely, I would need to look up the race record of a horse called Friskim which won at Northam at the time, maybe on Cup Night....we used to do a radio show on 6 AM doing trot tips and it was one of my rare successful tips.Fred was not keen on standing start races at the time even though he (and Bill) won dozens of them at Northam. I was the timekeeper as well as being on Committee until I transferred out employment wise at the end of 1978.

Thanks for the reply JJ, I bet very few (including me) knew that.

JayJay · January 2023

Reassuring find, the brain ain't as dead as what people frequently tell me. Race book Northam Trotting Club, April 30th 1977. It was Cup Night and the Cup winner (first up in WA) was in fact Friskim from 10m, 2600m, for a purse of $1500 driven by F.R Kersley beating Milson Edition 20m, Deep Secret Fr and Culver Dene 10m. Others in finishing order were Young Salerno, Pulse rate, Kohbar, Bar Talk, Dressaid, Taraway, Highway pride and Little Captain. Winning Mile Rate was 2.9.0 Km Rate (remember that stupidity) 1.20.2. I think that was his only start in WA. Had won his two previous starts in SA some 9 months earlier, a fact not revealed in the form guide. 8/1 into 4/1 is what I have recorded. Pretty decent field, Milson Edition may have won an Australian Pacing Championship somewhere around that time or maybe a touch later.

Other winners on the programme were Cruello (FRK), Paleface Pennant (Kevin Batt), Yilgarna (FRK), Classic Command (Lindsay Froyland), Butler Royal (Graham Taylor) and Smoke Hazard (Charlie Rifici). Stakes for all races other than the Cup were $700. All races were standing starts. The timekeeping was of a very high standard.

curmudgeon · January 2023

Milson Edition ran second to Rip Van Winkle in an Australian Pacing Championship in Adelaide I think...maybe 1979. He was the first horse to break 2 minutes at Globe Derby for a distance greater than a mile from memory. Lou Austin & Les Marriott floated Milson Edition (a stallion ) & Virgil Queen over & back together in a double horse float without any problem.

JayJay · January 2023

December 3, 1977 APC at Globe Derby Park in a very, very hot field. Virgil Queen did not qualify but The Rifleman was not idle, he drove Royal Force in the final. Milson Edition left Perth in rare form (3 on the trot in fast class) and won his heat opening night, 3rd to Dillon Titian and Paleface on night 2. Lead the final, got taken on by Nevada smoke but held the top. But Rip Van Winkle hadn't been destroyed by Steelo at that stage and he was too fast for him late. Steelo was 3rd after being 3 wide the last lap and some.... 1.59.5 his last mile off the course. There were 15,000 in the house that night, heavens above, what administrators have done to the sport is nothing short of criminal. You wouldn't get 15,,000 across an entire season at GD Park. Finishing order was Rip, Milson, Steelo, Paleface, Roma Hanover, Nevada smoke, Dillon Titian, Markovina, Dimante Hanover and Royal Force. Was a $50,000 race.

Glad you mentioned Milson Edition.....great looker and a terrific pedigree, I am guessing that Porters had him ear marked as their next stallion but I don't how that worked out. I will look him up afterwards but I seem to recall not many offspring and the best one was a trotter that ended up with Langs in Victoria, no clue on his name but I think he went pretty good.

Markovina · January 2023

JayJay said:
Reassuring find, the brain ain't as dead as what people frequently tell me. Race book Northam Trotting Club, April 30th 1977. It was Cup Night and the Cup winner (first up in WA) was in fact Friskim from 10m, 2600m, for a purse of $1500 driven by F.R Kersley beating Milson Edition 20m, Deep Secret Fr and Culver Dene 10m. Others in finishing order were Young Salerno, Pulse rate, Kohbar, Bar Talk, Dressaid, Taraway, Highway pride and Little Captain. Winning Mile Rate was 2.9.0 Km Rate (remember that stupidity) 1.20.2. I think that was his only start in WA. Had won his two previous starts in SA some 9 months earlier, a fact not revealed in the form guide. 8/1 into 4/1 is what I have recorded. Pretty decent field, Milson Edition may have won an Australian Pacing Championship somewhere around that time or maybe a touch later.

Other winners on the programme were Cruello (FRK), Paleface Pennant (Kevin Batt), Yilgarna (FRK), Classic Command (Lindsay Froyland), Butler Royal (Graham Taylor) and Smoke Hazard (Charlie Rifici). Stakes for all races other than the Cup were $700. All races were standing starts. The timekeeping was of a very high standard.

Seeing you were the Time Keeper their - and you have old Northam race books - and you also mention Graham Taylor - who i liked - because he was a competent driver and his horses were honest and genuine

This would have been early 80s - i reckon - around 83/84 -allmost certain it was a Saturday night meeting - and i was in attendance - and im absolutely certain it was the last race - GT had one in that race - and it was a pretty slippery field -- it drew the outside of the front (6) that is the only reason they bet 10 or 12 to 1 - and i was on it

400 metres into the race - its caught 4-5 wide and got absolutely no hope of getting in - when there was suddenly a bit of a kerfuffle - scrimmage - and that enabled GT to duck in and jagg the 1 by 1 sit - and that won him the race - so it was great - i went home with money in my pocket - and of course under that scenario - one of the joys of going to Northam - was on the way home - about half way approx - popping into that late night Servo- the one on the crescent of the hill on the left - for a little bit of supper - a few icecreams - chocolate - soft drinks - whatever

See if you can come up with the name of that horse mate - my memory is a total blank on its name - but i would be interested after all these years - the actual name of that horse

JayJay · January 2023

Not quite sure why ... it was long after I ceased being Timekeeper at Northam ...but:

Saturday October 22, 1983...last race (race 7).

2.27 Mobile 2140m $1250 Anover Ayr (Graham Taylor) beat Fancy Fella, Cold Town, Sheffield Gleam, Gypsy Melody, Dark Suede, Lincoln Castle, captain Tucky, Hobbit and Mystery Boy.

Other winners on the night Dainty's devel (R.Cushing), Hot As Hell (Tricky), Adios Marty (FRK), Datelinka (Ian Petricevich), Leetron (ACL) and Toliver Toby (Kevin Keys)

Only other possibility in th etime frame you suggested would be September 16 1982, GT won the last race with Taragan but that was a Thursday Night.

If it is not the horse you are thinking of, I can't help you.

Markovina · January 2023

Thanks for that - its definitely Anover Ayr - 83 fits in perfectly - it was a Sat night - last race - and the distance of the race fits as well - because it was at the end of the back straight - where that scrimmage happened - i can even picture now - and that enabled him to get into the running line

Taylor - he had a moustache didnt he - hah

Daintys Devel of course - but Hot as Hell brings back memories as well - i can remember that horse

Rocket_Reign · January 2023

JayJay said:
Not quite sure why ... it was long after I ceased being Timekeeper at Northam ...but:

Saturday October 22, 1983...last race (race 7).

2.27 Mobile 2140m $1250 Anover Ayr (Graham Taylor) beat Fancy Fella, Cold Town, Sheffield Gleam, Gypsy Melody, Dark Suede, Lincoln Castle, captain Tucky, Hobbit and Mystery Boy.

Other winners on the night Dainty's devel (R.Cushing), Hot As Hell (Tricky), Adios Marty (FRK), Datelinka (Ian Petricevich), Leetron (ACL) and Toliver Toby (Kevin Keys)

Only other possibility in th etime frame you suggested would be September 16 1982, GT won the last race with Taragan but that was a Thursday Night.

If it is not the horse you are thinking of, I can't help you.

83 gee it’s a game of longevity most of the other winning drivers on the night are still involved in the industry in one way or another

G'day Punter!

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