WACHRA Submission and Question Time In The legislative Assembly (Rundle/Whitby)Harness & Greyhounds

JayJay

WACHRA
has been doing a power of work behind the scenes to support the ongoing
future of country harness racing (both Clubs and Race Dates) and
recently presented a comprehensive 35 page submission to Minister Whitby
in his office last Friday. This submission was prompted by ongoing
speculation of a further "rationalisation" by RWWA of country racing,
confirmed in person with a number of key players. 

Subsequent to the
submission being presented, Shadow Racing Minister Peter Rundle
today asked a probing four part question directed to Minister Whitby
during question time in the Legislative Assembly concerning the
Minister's position. An audio/video link for question time is provided below.
The question occurs at the 56 minute mark of the link followed by
the Minister's answer. His response is very supportive of WACHRA's
submission (which he has yet to fully digest having been away for 4
days) and very positive with regard to the ongoing future of Country
Harness Racing and the Country Clubs. Clearly, Minister Whitby, Shadow
Minister Rundle and WACHRA are on the same page. 

When The Hansard
record of proceedings is proofed and available, I will post both the
Shadow Minister's questions and the Ministers response. 

Audio/Video Link: http://site-210922.bcvp0rtal.com/detail/videos/questions-without-notice/video/6332777382112/10-august---questions-without-notice?autoStart=true

Moonraker

playing devils advocate.... he supports country clubs holding as many meetings as possible.

it could be interpreted if holding particular country meetings are deemed to be not beneficial to the financial prosperity of the the industry, then its not possible to hold them.

Again.... devils advocate

JayJay

Yes but if that was your criteria, you would shut down Gloucester Park tomorrow as it's "take" of overall industry funding from RWWA is much greater than what it generates.

Moonraker

JayJay said:

Yes but if that was your criteria, you would shut down Gloucester Park tomorrow as it's "take" of overall industry funding from RWWA is much greater than what it generates.

don't disagree but this is the exact reason for including the word 'deemed'. Perception and reality are not necessarily the same.

JayJay

RACING AND WAGERING WA — HARNESS RACING REFORMS
494. Mr P.J. RUNDLE to the Minister for Racing and Gaming:
I refer to reports that Racing and Wagering Western Australia is considering both a reduction in racing dates and a reduction in the number of country harness racing clubs in a proposed revamp of harness racing in WA.
(1) Is the minister aware of the effect such closures will have on country communities and the whole harnessracing industry?
(2) Is the minister aware of the perception of many clubs that the proposed rationalisations are designed to prop up the underperforming and under-attended principal metropolitan track at Gloucester Park?
(3) Can the minister update the house on the proposed $24.7 million allocation of industry funds to be spent upgrading Gloucester Park potentially at the expense of country clubs?
(4) Are these steps linked to the recently rumoured sale of the TAB?
Several members interjected.
The SPEAKER: Order, please members!
Mr R.R. WHITBY replied:
(1)–(4) I thank the member for Roe. I appreciate the question because it allows me to restate this government’s commitment to racing right across Western Australia. I recently was in Kalgoorlie with cabinet colleagues andI took the opportunity to inspect the Kalgoorlie racecourse, which has been around since 1896 —
Mr P.J. Rundle: Did you close the Kalgoorlie harness club?
The SPEAKER: Order, please!
Mr R.R. WHITBY: No, I actually did not.
The SPEAKER: Order, please, members! Member for Roe, you asked a multi-part question. I would like to give the minister the opportunity to answer each of those parts without further interruption given the time.
<030> T/M
Mr R.R. WHITBY: The member is not good on detail. That is not true. However, I appreciate the role of all our racing clubs across Western Australia, and all codes. I know the contribution they make to the social fabric of our towns. I attend many remote meetings, and I am always struck by the turnout and the commitment of locals, often done on a volunteer basis, to have those race clubs continue. It is true that many of them are struggling because of the changing nature of rural communities, where we are losing local banks and businesses, and the number of people who populate regional towns. I do know their importance and their significance. In fact, I had a visit last week from the West Australian Country Harness Racing Association, and it just so happens that I have its full report in front of me, which I look forward to diving into, and it makes the case, very strongly, that it wants to retain as many meetings as possible.
I told the association—and I am not above telling the member now—that I agree with that approach, and I agree with the contribution that racing makes to our state. I can tell the member that I will be a very firm supporter of continuing to see as many meetings as possible at harness and thoroughbred race clubs across Western Australia.
RACING AND WAGERING WA — HARNESS RACING REFORMS
495. Mr P.J. RUNDLE to the Minister for Racing and Gaming:
I have a supplementary question. I appreciate the minister’s support for country harness and racing clubs.
The SPEAKER: And the question?
Mr P.J. RUNDLE: Is the sale of TBA being looked at again?
Mr R.R. WHITBY replied:
No

Rocket_Reign

Did they talk about how much of a loss these country clubs are running at?

JayJay

I think you need to differentiate what you mean there. The country clubs are extremely financial, so it is extremely misleading to suggest they are running at a loss, they are financially very sound, and, unlike the Gloucester Park Club, did not need to rely on Jobkeeper to show a book profit.They have the support of their communities, local  trainers, residents, local shire, volunteers and local breeders.

In terms of turnover, it is true that Gloucester Park does account for around  50% of turnover but it eats up a lot more than 50% of total Industry funding. That is, it spends far more than it generates. Without  receiving what RWWA provides to run a meeting, the place would be a financial blackhole. It is seriously under patronised and on course turnover is almost negligible.

It is very expensive turnover. It has the iconic name, the central location,  the highest stakes, the best horses, the leading trainers and drivers  and it operates in the prime timeslot without any  competition from Menangle, Melton, Albion Park and believe it or not, the emerging Globe Derby. In that regard, if it wasn't generating the most turnover, then the concept of gravity would have to be re-evaluated. The country clubs get the shittiest time slots, run against the major metro clubs in the East and generate less but much "cheaper" turnover because their meeting costs are so much lower and their stakes payout is so much less. In addition to this, the wages bill is, due to volunteers, almost negligible, eg they are not paying the kid who operates the numbers room and they don't have security people standing around securing nobody and playing on their phones all night.

What they did talk about was the nonsensical strategy of a  growing the already shrinking footprint of harness racing by shutting down even more country tracks, a breathtakingly stupid and proven  failed strategy from the past. Previous "rationalisations" of the harness industry, some long before you were around,  have been spectacularly unsuccessful resulting in a mass exodus of owners, trainers, drivers and breeders, a statement of fact as the figures clearly show. Both Minister Whitby and Shadow Minister Rundle have all the numbers at their behest and are both on the same page of retaining and growing  country communities and their very successful Harness Clubs and tracks.

I can send you a copy of the 35 page submission if you wish which contains all the details of what WACHRA are on about.

warrenrobinson

Interesting when people make comments on country clubs loosing money without facts. Remember opinions are worthless without facts.

AbbysAce

Heres an interview after Gavin Lang after he drove his 5000 winner.

At the 3 minute 40 second mark of the interview, he said " country people are the backbone of the industry " but what would Gavin know, 

Markovina

Rocket_Reign said:

Did they talk about how much of a loss these country clubs are running at?

Hey Rocket - years back when you were annually taking a reasonable size team to Kalgoorlie or Albany and i presume you were basing yourself their - while they raced week in  week out etc 

And there were others doing the same thing - who would take teams their Aldo - Peter Tillbrook and a few others - basically to make some money 

So those trainers based their would have provided about 70% of the runners on a weekly basis - so that is important - because that overcomes the tyranny of distance problem - because you have trainers based their while they have their racing season 

My question is - did either of those clubs - or their Municipal council or their Chamber of Commerce - say to you - look we are very happy you coming here each year - supplying the horse numbers - and we want you to keep coming - thus we will give you cheaper stabling - or help with your transport/fuel cost to get your horses their - or any other financial incentive - so you would keep coming back each year 

JayJay

Article on the Kulin Bush Races, a totally volunteer run community event that has pumped 1.8 million into the town, set up an apprenticeship scheme, bought back the pub and so much more. Not sure about it's turnover figures but the 4000 tickets sell out online in 38 seconds. Probably should be shut down and run at Ascot or Belmont.

 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-13/kulin-bush-races-record-crowds-expected-sellout/102685700?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=facebook&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web&fbclid=IwAR1w2npymNQjQ13jREphGPbcqT_ZCN97ViAiZcmCaKO3lM1MDGGcEC0F87s

warrenrobinson

What a great promotion Kulin ????????????. Couldn’t imagine foolsville (GP) having 4000 people at a race meeting not even the Interdominions????

Rocket_Reign

I understand JayJay that the country clubs have money in the bank they’re all well off, Kalgoorlie still has a substantial amount in their bank and they haven’t raced for years. That isn’t the issue though the issue is the stake money funding that they receive that far outweighs the turnover they generate.
I’m not even going to respond to you Warren you have the IQ of a brick.
Marko yes we were looked after in Kal / Albany the clubs were great to deal with and obviously cared about participants etc. loved our time in Kalgoorlie but understand it also wasn’t financially viable for the industry going forward

jum

Genuine question then Rocket.

Do you think the industry is in a better place now than say 5 to 10 years ago and moving forward closing these country tracks and exclusively racing at GP, Pinjarra and Bunbury will be sustainable and financially viable???? And the industry will be better off for ALL in another 5 to 10 years.

Rocket_Reign

jum said:

Genuine question then Rocket.

Do you think the industry is in a better place now than say 5 to 10 years ago and moving forward closing these country tracks and exclusively racing at GP, Pinjarra and Bunbury will be sustainable and financially viable???? And the industry will be better off for ALL in another 5 to 10 years.

No I don’t think the industry is in a better spot, times have changed regards to crowds etc it’s a more digital world even id prefer to watch the races / trots at home on the couch betting with laptop etc. Closing the tracks that are bleeding money would give us a prize money increase at those main tracks. More money means more participants

Gilgamesh

Are any of the harness clubs currently racing providing more in revenue to RWWA through POC,race fields, tote receipts etc than what they are receiving in terms of prize money distribution and handouts to keep the facilities running??

My guess would be a strong no, shut them all down???

AbbysAce

Rocket_Reign said:

jum said:

Genuine question then Rocket.

Do you think the industry is in a better place now than say 5 to 10 years ago and moving forward closing these country tracks and exclusively racing at GP, Pinjarra and Bunbury will be sustainable and financially viable???? And the industry will be better off for ALL in another 5 to 10 years.

No I don’t think the industry is in a better spot, times have changed regards to crowds etc it’s a more digital world even id prefer to watch the races / trots at home on the couch betting with laptop etc. Closing the tracks that are bleeding money would give us a prize money increase at those main tracks. More money means more participants

There will be less participants, less horses, smaller fields, and less money.....

Rocket_Reign

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

jum said:

Genuine question then Rocket.

Do you think the industry is in a better place now than say 5 to 10 years ago and moving forward closing these country tracks and exclusively racing at GP, Pinjarra and Bunbury will be sustainable and financially viable???? And the industry will be better off for ALL in another 5 to 10 years.

No I don’t think the industry is in a better spot, times have changed regards to crowds etc it’s a more digital world even id prefer to watch the races / trots at home on the couch betting with laptop etc. Closing the tracks that are bleeding money would give us a prize money increase at those main tracks. More money means more participants

There will be less participants, less horses, smaller fields, and less money.....

That’s your opinion but mine is the opposite

AbbysAce

Gilgamesh said:

Are any of the harness clubs currently racing providing more in revenue to RWWA through POC,race fields, tote receipts etc than what they are receiving in terms of prize money distribution and handouts to keep the facilities running??

My guess would be a strong no, shut them all down???

My guess is GP will use the figures during covid when GP raced on a Sunday several times, only thing is every meeting was up by a big % during covid. 

One thing is we need bigger fields ( at least 8 so there is a 3rd place dividend) that would help turnover.

These 6 horse fields with , 2 or 3 lots of stablemates , settling in single file, the only people happy about them are owners of these horses, trainers cos they get there % and make their strike rates look better, and the curator cos he only has to do one lap of the track between races. Remember we need to get new punters betting on wa harness, turnover needs to go up, how do these races do that?

JayJay

The stakemoney funding and meeting costs that GP receives from RWWA far outweighs the return from turnover generated....this is the case for ALL clubs. Currently, harness generates about 50 cents in the dollar for what it pays out. In simple terms, the Industry is heavily subsidised and should be racing for far less than it is.

The past actions of shutting down clubs and tracks (Industry Rationalisation) has not solved anything in terms of returning the Industry to a profitable footing. It has been disastrous in terms of the numbers of participants (humans and horses). They are the facts.  Rationalisation has had the opposite effect and exacerbated an already dire situation. History shows repeatedly that reducing the footprint even further will once again reduce the number of owners, trainers, drivers, breeders and horses and I fear the proponents of track closures, like the so called HROA, are in danger of ignoring a repeat of History.

If the "closing the tracks that are bleeding money" principle was applied, GP would shut immediately, long before another $24.7 million of Industry Funding (which could be far better spent establishing on course training facilities at, for example, Pinjarra to shore up the younger participant base) is wasted on a non performing white elephant like GP for the benefit of a smattering of some of the 300 odd members who occasionally visit "their club".

Nonetheless, there are a variety of views on this touchy subject and I doubt my feeble offerings will change anyone's mind but there are vibrant country communities in the Country that deserves to keep their banks, their schools, their hospitals and their local Harness Racing Track. Sometimes, the enrichment or even sustainability of life in these towns rises above a positive financial set of figures. It was on that basis that the "Royalties For Regions" scheme was so successful, a concept that has sadly disappeared off the radar.

Chariotsonfire

JayJay stated "the stakemoney funding and meeting costs that GP receives from RWWA far outweighs the return from turnover generated this is the case for ALL clubs. Currently, harness generates about 50 cents in the dollar for what it pays out. In simple terms, the Industry is heavily subsidised and should be racing for far less than it is.

That is the reality for harness racing to address but no easy solution and we are heavily subsidised but most of the industry would rather put their heads in the sand on this issue.

JayJay

That is reality indeed, and as you say Chariots, no one is asking why? They continually spruke "come on in, the water is fine", despite large dorsal fins circling the few brave enough to go for a swim. Those heavily subsidising Harness will reach a breaking point sooner probably than later and the game will be up.

According to the short term self interest merchants, the model is fine, the product is great, every week is a "cracking program",  the handicapping system is fine, RBD is fine, the programming gilt edged brilliance, GP is "turnover central", the track size is fine, the lack of patrons is not an issue despite the joint falling to bits, almost zero media exposure and even less promotion isn't a worry, the preponderance of ridiculously short priced favourites is "great for turnover and the big punters", ignore the leader bias and dependence on barrier draw....and so on and so on. Anyone who raises any issues is immediately labelled a whinger or a negative person,which is just a complete cop out.

So, they just keep on doing what they have been doing for decades and decades, people keep exiting the Industry in droves, the big self interest groups keep racing for the 'subsidised' stakes amongst themselves in tiny fields until there is no one left to race against. And the "solution" is to shut down and concentrate the racing at 3 or 4 tracks??? The back slappers are so far removed from reality it is frightening (if you actually care about the long term future of the Industry.

Yilgarna

You make excellent points JJ- country towns should be able to keep schools, shops, Police stations, sporting teams and trotting tracks. It's corporate mentality v social responsibility. I'll send some people into cardiac arrest, but why should turnover be everything ? I love the trots as much as anyone, but I am a non-punter.  Seems like I am part of the problem, but why I can't  go to Wagin, Northam, Central Wheatbelt (the latter two of which I am a member), have a drink, buy a feed, watch the horses, and have a great time without punting?

Swampgas

Small armies on the battlefield 9 times out of 10 get destroyed.. reducing clubs and participants and the footprint overall is a surefire way to guarantee. the industry will get wiped out. The sport has a long history and still a chance of a bright future.. but I fear a few people with self interests with a short term view will be the driver of this. RWWA's leadership is a joke.. I'm sure they hate the  harness code cause it is going down the gurgler from their blundering leadership over the years. I heard them say quote "it's a worldwide trend" so with rhetoric like that they don't have to do anything.. be responsible for anything...better not tell the Europeans the sport is buggered cause you'd get laughed at!! only thing that's really buggered here is weak leadership and narrow minded short term profiteering bastards. Blind Freddy knows we should be all over Pinjarra going forward.. GP is a track suited for BillyGoat racing.   

AbbysAce

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

jum said:

Genuine question then Rocket.

Do you think the industry is in a better place now than say 5 to 10 years ago and moving forward closing these country tracks and exclusively racing at GP, Pinjarra and Bunbury will be sustainable and financially viable???? And the industry will be better off for ALL in another 5 to 10 years.

No I don’t think the industry is in a better spot, times have changed regards to crowds etc it’s a more digital world even id prefer to watch the races / trots at home on the couch betting with laptop etc. Closing the tracks that are bleeding money would give us a prize money increase at those main tracks. More money means more participants

There will be less participants, less horses, smaller fields, and less money.....

That’s your opinion but mine is the opposite

Have a look at the amount of foals bred every year, the amount of licenced trainers every year, the amount of drivers every year renewing there licence, the amount of junior drivers every year trying to get their licence , you tell me if any of these are going up? No thats right its all about turnover............

warrenrobinson

RWWA’s Harness Business Model seeks to improve the commerciality of Harness Racing and provide a substainable & positive future for the sport 2016. They have failed due to total lack of leadership and self interested industry groups spreading propaganda with some naive participants believing all will be fine with GP central leading the way. No handicap, no turnover, no integrity, no future.

JayJay

Spot on Abby's, the data is irrefutable and has been evident for decades. I've been flapping my gums about it on here for years but some only see what they want to see and respond by questioning your cognitive capacity. The decline in licensed participants, foalings etc and the alarming disappearance of Junior Claimers (excluding the massive input from the Suvaljko family) has been staring administrators in the face forever, yet the self interest Gordon Geckos continue to demand that an even smaller footprint is the cure all. 

Somehow, "shrink it and it will grow" is the crazy delusion that they subscribe to and adhere to.

And via the peculiarities of the decision making processes set up in the original RWWA Legislation Model twenty years ago, and subsequently altered over the years in terms of the make up of those advisory bodies, they have the power to implement their flawed philosophies.

Everyone agrees that turnover is the key, the lifeblood so to speak, but it is how you go about reversing the reality that people don't bet on the trots that is the issue. What has been done in the past 20 years has been an abject failure. As the participation numbers have gone into free fall, so has turnover. The numbers do not lie and all of that data and trend graphs has been included in the comprehensive WACHRA Submission to the Minister, warts and all. 

Rationalisation has been an irrefutable monumental failure, it has driven generations of participants out of the Industry, in fact it has in large part destroyed the Industry and yet the latest solution involves ....wait for it...further rationalisation. Furthermore, lets concentrate everything on an outdated leader biased 800m track that no one goes to and lets ensure repetitive leader biased barrier draw dependent borefests that no one bets on, complimented by a failed handicap system, to seal the fate of the Industry. The previously mentioned 50% figure on cost versus income is now obsolete..... its down to 48 cents earned on every dollar paid out. The sugar hit from Covid on turnover is well and truly gone.

JayJay

What do the following all have in common?

Jay Farrell, Craig Billingham, Daniel Nye, Patrick Keating, Kathryn Kersley, David Kaa, Colin Hoogenkamp, Nicola Jordan, Bradley Groves, Luke Woodworth, Brad Stampalia, Darren Kerr, Vance Stampalia, Ashley Fairhurst, Lang Inwood, John Jelf, Sherri Fowler, Tim Stone, Colin March, Clayton Elliott, Natalie duffy, Matthew Kirke, Ryan Hough, Shane Gaebler, Dean Jerrard, Brendon Robartson.

In September 2000, all of the above drove in races, all had the designation (C,cl) after their names, all were claiming junior drivers. And there may well be others.

Management decisions have somehow almost eliminated Junior claimers from the system.

"Shrink it and it will grow".

JayJay

By comparison, just Kyle Symington and Joey Suvaljko going around Friday Night with Hayden Hancock and Tom Bryant joining them at Northam on Saturday.

Moonraker

Case in point - I saw Hayden Reeves on bookface last week seeking a claiming driver for drive at Kellerberin. He was offering a $100 incentive. 

From 1 viewpoint - Its a sad state there are no juniors beating down his door seeking the drive once the fields are out.

From the other viewpoint - it backs up the argument that participants dont want to go to these far flung places. 

Not sure how it played out - but as an aside - if i was a junior driver, I would have been asking him for a second drive, not the cash. 

Ivorytrunkey86

Dan nye left to work fifo for money after not getting many oppurtunities.ash fairhurst had some terrible falls and was in a back brace almost in a wheelchair,and Ryan Hough was replaced in his stable by a better junior ????????