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Are WA Trainers feeling this as well ?

West Australian Racing

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  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,248 posts
    absolutely no doubt. 

    frenc11 likes this post.

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  • careycarey    6,369 posts
    maybe, but wa is nowhere near as saturated as vic, and it's the prime reason why i moved my own stuff to wa.
    so it's not just trainers that don't like the race every two seconds caper.

    frenc11 likes this post.

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,677 posts
    I think the success of a few is healthy only to a point, there is a genuine need for success for many as the knock on effects are huge.

    If a Perth Trainer wants to be truly competitive, it can't be off the back of small stable. A medium sized stable needs a level of support from an Owner base that is diverse as this lessens the impact of economic downturns, it also would follow from there that a diverse ownership base would also mean diverse breeding and classifications of type. This is hard to achieve when someone is starting out and more so when an established Trainer hits a flat spot in results that can often happen and is happening to quite a few in Perth right now.

    What flows from these times are the inability to restock with quality yearlings, which further exacerbates the precarious position of the struggling Trainer to attract both new Owners and retain existing. The resulting lack of media coverage from non winning periods also contribute to the profile not being found when an opportunity may come along. When yearling sales prices are depressed, as they were this year in Perth, breeding farms then have to take long term assessment of quality of damlines and the numbers start to decline and sales offerings shrink. They have to survive first. Small Breeders have already started to depart as the current landscape is untenable without large economies of scale. Less horses for sale then only creates and level of demand that further forces those on the edge into the abyss.

    Whilst this story talks about the number of race meetings and the demands created by such on staff and Trainers alike, here in Perth our isolation hasn't allowed that level of growth. Our problem is both the dwindling horse population and yes there has been an influx of people taking up ownership opportunities, but they are doing so mostly in syndicates. As a result, clearance rates at sales and average selling prices are falling.

    There has been lots of talk about selling the WA TAB and where funds will be channeled but I would like to know what is being done to address the next generation. I haven't heard an initiative addressing young Trainers. Somehow it is supposed to be just happen.

    If anyone at RWWA has some feedback I would be happy to talk about it, here or elsewhere.


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  • BucksBucks    158 posts
    From an outsider with little knowledge of how a stables make their money it seems to me as most of these trainers have a broken business model. The article said 85% of stakes money goes to the top 100 trainers. I don't know how this could be an issue as (in my opinion) a stable should be making money based on training fees rather than stakes, something which you have no control over. Maybe more stables need to forensically run through their books to see where the money is going and look at areas where they can tighten up. 

    I only need to look at a recent invoice from my trainer to see columns for accounts that are 
    30 days overdue
    60 days overdue
    90 days overdue

    How can you make money when you allow your clients to let bills get overdue by 90 days?
    Maybe RWWA should run some free business classes. It may help more than by simply increasing stakes.

    Successful trainers don't necessarily equal successful business people.

    detonator likes this post.

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  • saxonsaxoffsaxonsaxoff    179 posts
    I don't think it is just the trainers feeling the pinch. I see electra bloodstock has ceased operations passing all the horses directly into the hands of durrant now. Similar issues I imagine for that mid tier syndicator trying to keep yourself in a positive cashflow can be pretty difficult. 
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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,996 posts
    they (rwwa) appear to hand out training licences willy-nilly. I remember looking at a mid-week provincial a few weeks back and was hard pressed to recognise trainers.
    you can guarantee that well over 50% have other jobs..unless they like eating wallpaper.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,677 posts
    edited March 2019
    saxonsaxoff said:

    I don't think it is just the trainers feeling the pinch. I see electra bloodstock has ceased operations passing all the horses directly into the hands of durrant now. Similar issues I imagine for that mid tier syndicator trying to keep yourself in a positive cashflow can be pretty difficult. 



    I did notice that he was absent from this year's yearling sales but was advertising last year's purchases in the wake of this year's sale. Everyone has different ideas on what a yearling is or isn't, but when your a syndicator they have to run early as everything is marginal. Any unhealthy business practices, for example carrying too much risk or over commitment, and the elastic can easily break.

    WA is not really a happy home for syndication outside of those stables that have large existing databases and purchase to a formulae every year. 
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,677 posts
    thefalcon said:

    they (rwwa) appear to hand out training licences willy-nilly. I remember looking at a mid-week provincial a few weeks back and was hard pressed to recognise trainers.
    you can guarantee that well over 50% have other jobs..unless they like eating wallpaper.
     

    Is there any formal training course conducted by RWWA to obtain a Trainers lic ?
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  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    From memory Damo it is 2 pages on animal welfare.....but that was a few years back
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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,257 posts
    There's apprentice jockeys taken on by trainers, why can't there be formal apprentice trainers to senior trainers... Or is that a foreman? What is the current incentive for senior trainers to take on apprentices?

    Obviously it isn't an exact science and everybody has their different ways. But surely some sort of mentorship program would be the way to go
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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,996 posts
    very good point, bomber.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,677 posts
    edited March 2019
    Imagine how good the guys and girls are going to be one day that currently run a barn of 20 horses in work for Chris Waller ? I think he has six barns. I presume something similar is at Godolphin as well, but they have always been structured. Of course in NSW and Victoria, there are qualifications to be obtained.

    thefalcon likes this post.

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  • sonnysonny    1,079 posts
    I only know 1 trainer who worked for Inghams as a barn foreman who went solo and is struggling..Just because you work for a top trainer doesn't equate that you will be successful. Barts foreman in the 90s became a trainer and lasted less than 2 years..
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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,996 posts
    you are talking singular guys..1 at inghams and 1 at barts.
    just look at the horsemen who came thru bart..there are scores of them and many successful.
    maybe the 2 you mentioned didn't have the gift...
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  • sonnysonny    1,079 posts
    Who are they?

    RIO, Nevershowsurprise likes this post.

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  • FlandersFlanders    1,208 posts
    thefalcon said:

    you are talking singular guys..1 at inghams and 1 at barts.
    just look at the horsemen who came thru bart..there are scores of them and many successful.
    maybe the 2 you mentioned didn't have the gift...

    Correct. You can't be just a good horseman. The ability to make sound financial decisions, be able to deal with people (owners especially) and many other factors are keys to being a successful trainer. A dash of luck goes a long way too.

    spinking likes this post.

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  • hashhash    7,495 posts
    saxonsaxoff said:

    I don't think it is just the trainers feeling the pinch. I see electra bloodstock has ceased operations passing all the horses directly into the hands of durrant now. Similar issues I imagine for that mid tier syndicator trying to keep yourself in a positive cashflow can be pretty difficult. 

    his reasons for ceasing operations were due to health reasons apparently... it's been well documented but whether or not the financial pinch took it's toll and contributed who knows

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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    I can assure you stables do not make money off training fees (especially in WA, at our rates here).
    Not if run to the letter of the law at least............... award wages, full insurances etc.

    Smaller stables, without "employees" (eg just family members doing the work) may be different, but even so what they'd earn themselves whilst technically "profit" would be below award wage levels when broken down to hours worked.

    Stables rely on stakes earnings to make ends meet.
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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,996 posts
    tivs, I know you are close to a very successful stable but there would have to be some healthy profit in training fees.
    all stables go thru a lean patch..got the animals but winners elusive so fees must give them some sort of living.
    just my thoughts, that's all.
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    If we don't win races - we trade at a (big) loss.
    Can show you year after year of financials - those with higher winnings, profit.
    Those with leaner winnings - losses.
    No exceptions..............every years results follow that rule.

    Seems pretty clear cut to me.

    RIO likes this post.

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  • ManchildManchild    702 posts
    There must be an amount that a Trainer has to make to be able to cover costs. In my business I know exactly what my break even  cost is , surly a trainer would know the same

    thefalcon likes this post.

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  • FlandersFlanders    1,208 posts
    Tivers said:

    If we don't win races - we trade at a (big) loss.

    Can show you year after year of financials - those with higher winnings, profit.
    Those with leaner winnings - losses.
    No exceptions..............every years results follow that rule.

    Seems pretty clear cut to me.

    What about stables that syndicate a large percentage of their horses whilst retaining a chunk of the horse too? I've got an assumption that they cover the purchase price and monthly costs with the non-stable money, therefore giving them zero risk.
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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,996 posts
    some sydications are the greatest lurk ever.... ;)

    Rex likes this post.

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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Manchild said:

    There must be an amount that a Trainer has to make to be able to cover costs. In my business I know exactly what my break even  cost is , surly a trainer would know the same

    Sure do (know that).
    Can't charge that though ,as the market dictates otherwise.
    Can't collude with everyone else and say hey, everyone put your fees up - as there's cartel laws against that ;)
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  • ManchildManchild    702 posts
    So trainers are price takers, not price makers.
    What is the break even (wages , vehicles,  fuel ,electricity, Rent, feed  etc ) thats required.
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  • RodentRodent    7,043 posts
    Trainers with good win records like Ben Currie and Darren Weir would be price makers I reckon.

    paraletic, RIO likes this post.

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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Racing Australia publish a table of "suggested" rates per state.
    Whilst I believe the rate for WA is a bit overs, it's certainly closer to actual cost that average rates that are actually charged here.
    Let's say perhaps meet half way.
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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,257 posts
    edited March 2019
    saxonsaxoff said:

    I I see electra bloodstock has ceased operations passing all the horses directly into the hands of durrant now. Similar issues I imagine for that mid tier syndicator trying to keep yourself in a positive cashflow can be pretty difficult. 

    And bang they win the first race today at Pinjarra. Gee he made use of that whip in the final 100m!!!

    DamienWyer likes this post.

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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,257 posts
    Which i might add is OK, with in the rules.
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  • BucksBucks    158 posts
    Lifting your daily training rates up $10-$20 a day is hardly going to affect your average 5%-10% owner by the time you divide it up. I'd suggest having 2 tiered pricing. One higher daily training rate for all your syndications and your current daily rate for those larger owners who might own a horse outright or give you at least a couple to train every year. That way you'd make more money out of the syndicating business which as stated is becoming more and more popular.
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