New Metro Programming

Rocket_Reign · January 24

Anyone seen the new metro programming starting next week? probably deserves a bit of discussion. Nothings been said to participants yet. To me it looks to go against everything HWOE system stands for

capgun · January 24

Yeah good to see they let us know it was coming.
They programmed a less than 8k race despite telling me “they have no interest in running those races at gp”

If gp is the turnover capital why not run less than 4K races too? Get full fields with shelling out the stake money. Before anyone says it- no one cares what quality is running at gp. Punters punt.

Arapaho · January 24

Unique nominations for this weekend were;

Gloucester Park 76

Aibany 129

Northam 172

No matter what sport,there is always, more lesser lights than the elite

Thats where every sports starts, at the bottom,,

you have to cater for them (Country Tracks etc) and by doing that hopefully,

More horses,Trainers ,Drivers will progress through the ranks ending up at our Prime Track Gloucester Park,

Dont forget Every Horse,Trainer ,Driver were all Non Winners when they started.

Unfortunately, because what has transpired in recent years with the closure of Country Tracks and restriction placed on Country Trainers Drivers, Hobbyists Etc you are now starting to see the end result with restricted races, or if you like, races that would have been programmed for the lesser lights or Country Track are now staring to be programmed at our Prime (Elite Track } Gloucester Park on a Friday night.

The gap between the Bottom and the Top is shrinking rapidly.

Markovina · January 24

capgun said:
Yeah good to see they let us know it was coming.
They programmed a less than 8k race despite telling me “they have no interest in running those races at gp”

If gp is the turnover capital why not run less than 4K races too? Get full fields with shelling out the stake money. Before anyone says it- no one cares what quality is running at gp. Punters punt.

You are 1000 % right about punters punt - couldnt careless about quality

Way back , before fixed odds , Canberra Trots used to hold meetings in that lovely sweet spot Sat late afternoon - maybe 1 race to go at all the Metro gallops meetings

Shocking low class horses , like say Kellerberrin , and some races they would hold 25-30k in the win pool and 10k in the trifecta , youve got gallops punters , who are still keen to bet for another hour - probably trying to recover their money

I can remember it , because apart from betting on them myself - Robbie Morris at that time had a broken arm or shoulder or something , so to give him something to do , Greg Hayes would get him into the Sky Channel studio , and they would both give their tips for each upcoming Canberra Trots race

JayJay · January 24

Thinking out loud but there has to be some sort of "circuit breaker" to the mid 60 odd acceptors and 8 race cards that have been a point of much discussion around GP. The last month or so has been diabolical and even though there are 9 races this Friday, I think the last 4 events have just the 6 runners. Whatever we may think of GP etc etc, it is hardly ideal for the prime metro venue in the prime turnover slot on a Friday Night to be delivering a "turnover deficient" card of 8 races with 4,5,6 or 7 starters.

All the excuses like "it's seasonal" or "we are still adjusting to the date change" that keep getting trotted out are really stretching credibility. Shifting the Pacing Cup to November has left the fast class ranks skinny on the ground as trainers, understandably, spell in preparation for the April Nullabor. The 5 horse FFA for $31k is just unsustainable at this time and the programming of the it and the Conditioned Stakes for similar level horses on the same night just cant continue. For mine, the programming promise to be "dynamic, flexible and in keeping with the racing population" got lost in the translation along time ago.

Certainly not ideal have $L5 $8k races at a prime metro meeting but the unimaginative cut and paste "we'll advertise 12 and run 10" overlay programming has lead to this point. The bobby dazzler for mine is putting the Fremantle Cup a week after the Nullabor, thinking that the Nullabor horses and any visitors will back up. Maybe they will but having it a fortnight before as a lead up makes more sense to me.

The bottom line is the $31 million in stakes will be paid out, it might just be paid out on a more even basis across the industry. Now, that is just my opinion, others will have their views but as Rocket says, it is worthy of (civilised) discussion.

Gilgamesh · January 24

This system to me seems to have stopped what was previously a natural progression of horses.

You look at the fields on a weekly basis, the friday horses are the friday horses, the tuesday horses are the tuesday horses, the monday horses are the monday horses, the outer circuit horses are the outer circuit horses.

There is little to no movement of horses coming through that win their grade and move through to being friday horses they just get stuck.

You might get the odd import win one or two and then become a friday horse but that aeems to happen very quickly now and to very few, the numbers arent enough to make up for the numbers that also retire/get moved on.

You see it in the times they run on a tuesday night. You always use to have a couple of races that were run at times that would be competitive on a Friday night be that by an up and comer or someone dropping back for a kill. To me now they just sit where they are and if they were to go up in grade they would get walloped.

I think there needs to be a better split of the grade of horse on a friday night so that more horses could be competitive on a friday, not necessarily talking about programing weeker races so much but it needs to be more possible in some way to take a Monday/Tues horse and be competitive on a Friday.

This system hasnt worked, to me it was too much a copy of what happens in America and I can not stand the single line no run on racing that dominates there and has infiltrated here.

Not sure the bench mark system is the answer either.

The moving around of the feature races has been deplorable, I often get the feeling that some do not even care or have any sort of feel for the sport that are involved in the harness department.

All that aside i've actually quite enjoyed the last couple of months of racing so if we could just get some numbers up to make more races betting options i'd be happy.

Gilgamesh · January 24

Also it seems we run sooo many less than $4000L5, less than $8000L5 etc. There really is no HWOE level system at all.

It was mentioned above dont worry about class punters well bet on anything and that is true to a point but I would be happy to bet a lot more on horses that had some actual form rather than a line up where half the horses have been non competitive their last half dozen starts.

Would much rather see a level4-6 pref draw on level, level 6-8 also eligible no less than $4kL5 type races where you have horses from lower grades coming up against better horses drawn poorly, at least gives you something to work with.

Instead we cop these less than $4k type races were you might cop a winner of 10 races coming out of hard company vs a winner of 2 that now draws outside him and has zero chance.

getthechange · January 24

Rocket_Reign said:
Anyone seen the new metro programming starting next week? probably deserves a bit of discussion. Nothings been said to participants yet. To me it looks to go against everything HWOE system stands for

hi rocket

could you expand on the comment regarding against everything the HWOE stands for

somethings cant be controlled by RWWA

eg - reedy has asked me what horses are worth and what i think they would be worth for WA is about 50-60% less than what they can get for the US

Bondy evidently decided to have a break because they havent had a christmas or new year off for a long time

g Hall has had only a few starters (retired o retiring ??)

RWWA knows what horses are in the system but they cant control Rcoket taking horses from Perth to Albany of Howlett doing teh same or where any trainer decides to start their horse for that matter . it isnt like the US with horses stabled at a track

but some things are controllable

to me there are more horses dropping back than going up which is largely due to form runners dropping back - effectively a horse can run five 2nds and drop a level after five start - it is and always has been ridiculous. they should only drop back if they have low earnings in last five starts

also horses that have dropped back get penalised just for starting if they race up in class

ie a HWOE level 8 can be racing in L5$LT $8k races then start in a ffa and drop back to the L5$Lt$8k race but a HWOE Level 14 starts in a ffa he can only drop a back to the L5$LT $25k race ( the vey horses that could help male up numbers get penalised if they start

I dont think the changes are huge at this stage but repalcing the L5$LT$25k race with a L5$LT $8k race leaves those that have won a L5$LT$20k in their last five starts in no mans land

Divided handicaps have been opposed for as long as I can remember because the trainer cant place his horse as it is done by handicappers.. From RWWA point of view they will probably work ok but connecttions average horse that ends up in the fast class race might not be.

Race level will be decided by the back of the race which could see an increase in the dreaded maximum start llevel

The start level for each start is the lower of the (A) Race Level and the (B) HWOE level of the horse and the highest of the start levels in the last five starts is the maximum start level of the horse. In my opinion the start level calculation is faulty and gives inconssisent outcomes

changes need to be made because moving the furniture is not enough

I still think the WA system is superior to the NR and with adjustment can be a verry good system

On a different note I went to Ascot on Saturday the first time for two or three years. No big feature races just a run of the mill Saturday meeting. Had a meal in the Fling Colours Restaurant - the food and service was great the weather was good and the results were terrible.couldnt find the horse I backed in running and still hadnt found them at the finish which makes you wonder why punters prefer them to harness racing - watched a few races from the balcony and very few people on teh lawn or in the stands to watch the races . its not just GP that has a problem with crowds

Markovina · January 25

"The gap between the bottom and the top is shrinking rapidly "

I just think that comment is so inaccurate - totally inaccurate

One of the big problems WA Trotting has is they have stacks and stacks and stacks of shocking non competitive horses , and i will give you a good example in a minute . You could fill heaps of road trains with these terrible uncompetitive WA pacers

The big advantage over East - is they have so many more options with these terrible horses - thus they race at far flung places like Albury - Dubbo - Mildura - Redcliffe - Leeton - and there is plenty more - and they have actually a chance of earning a cheque at those tracks

Now the example - Seeknyoushallfind , a terrible uncompetitive horse , and its form card says that . It ran Tuesday night at GP - and it has 60 plus runs( its last 60 their ) at GP without a single victory

What is it doing racing at GP ? , well i will tell you what it is doing , its filling 2 spots that shouldnt be their . Every other 800 metre track in Aust - over East and WA , they are 6/4 combinations on those small tracks , yet stupid GP have got the audacity to have 12 horse fields on their tiny track being 9/3

Ive allways been a sensible e/w punter , i want to bet when i think ive got a fair/good chance of winning , and i want the safety net of getting my betting stake money back if the horse is placed . In my opinion Win only punters are problem gamblers and most of them go broke

You take Friday nights GP up against Newcastle who race basically every Frid night

Newcastle have decent horses , alot of the top Syd reinsman go their week to week , Morris Gallagher Rixon Callaghan etc

But here is the major difference Newcastle have a big spacious 930 metre track , but a few years back they limited their field sizes to 10 - with an 8/2 format and they made 3 major points when did that

(a) They said we need 2 runners on the 2nd row otherwise they will all get cunning and snag at the start , and we dont want that , so that is logical

(b) Even though we have a big spacious track , we want to give every runner the chance of winning , that is why the max field size is 10

(c) And the 3rd point and they stressed this greatly was driver safety was of paramount of importance , that is why the max field size is 10

You compare that to stupid , ridiculous GP - with their tiny 800 metre track , yet they have 12 horse fields , that is the definition of insanity , and that is why i dont bet their

Arapaho · January 25

Markovina said:
"The gap between the bottom and the top is shrinking rapidly "

I just think that comment is so inaccurate - totally inaccurate

One of the big problems WA Trotting has is they have stacks and stacks and stacks of shocking non competitive horses , and i will give you a good example in a minute . You could fill heaps of road trains with these terrible uncompetitive WA pacers

The big advantage over East - is they have so many more options with these terrible horses - thus they race at far flung places like Albury - Dubbo - Mildura - Redcliffe - Leeton - and there is plenty more - and they have actually a chance of earning a cheque at those tracks

Now the example - Seeknyoushallfind , a terrible uncompetitive horse , and its form card says that . It ran Tuesday night at GP - and it has 60 plus runs( its last 60 their ) at GP without a single victory

What is it doing racing at GP ? , well i will tell you what it is doing , its filling 2 spots that shouldnt be their . Every other 800 metre track in Aust - over East and WA , they are 6/4 combinations on those small tracks , yet stupid GP have got the audacity to have 12 horse fields on their tiny track being 9/3

Ive allways been a sensible e/w punter , i want to bet when i think ive got a fair/good chance of winning , and i want the safety net of getting my betting stake money back if the horse is placed . In my opinion Win only punters are problem gamblers and most of them go broke

You take Friday nights GP up against Newcastle who race basically every Frid night

Newcastle have decent horses , alot of the top Syd reinsman go their week to week , Morris Gallagher Rixon Callaghan etc

But here is the major difference Newcastle have a big spacious 930 metre track , but a few years back they limited their field sizes to 10 - with an 8/2 format and they made 3 major points when did that

(a) They said we need 2 runners on the 2nd row otherwise they will all get cunning and snag at the start , and we dont want that , so that is logical

(b) Even though we have a big spacious track , we want to give every runner the chance of winning , that is why the max field size is 10

(c) And the 3rd point and they stressed this greatly was driver safety was of paramount of importance , that is why the max field size is 10

You compare that to stupid , ridiculous GP - with their tiny 800 metre track , yet they have 12 horse fields , that is the definition of insanity , and that is why i dont bet their

Arapaho · January 25

Marko, Alias Johnny Farnham,

You dont know it ,but you just confirmed what I said

The gap between the bottom and the top is shrinking rapidly;

Firstly there aint no places like Albury-,Dubbo -Mildura-Redcliffe-Leeton (which I assume are the tracks that as you say are where the lesser lights can start ) they have all but gone in WA.

In WA if you want to stay in the game and you have a mediocre horse your options are becoming more limited as time goes by.

The horse ,driver,trainer ,owner population along with the number of tracks is shrinking all the time,

So anything that is getting smaller, anyone with any idea would know that the top and bottom would be getting closer. Cheers

savethegame · January 25

Marko got be broken tongue-tie this time. Of cause the gap has shrunk no other option like Kalgoorlie presented having said that a few tgood horses would always be competing there that were capable of winning in metro area.
What's your take on lady Lani. I'm Loki just two I've notice racing lately from w.a. both are still racing now both have won 10 races since leaving W.A..There prior form would have been ideal for Kalgoorlie. They have won races at your Super Duper tracks. Melton Newcastle, Albion Park Bendigo Ballarat between. them. Getthechange I'm Loki won at least eight races in 30 -42 . both horses form has tapered. Hypothetical we would he be in comparison to when he originally left if he was to come back. assessment .

JayJay · January 25

I'm Loki is now a Level 10 horse (HWOE $49,401) and a NR 38.Prior to leaving WA, he was a level 6 with a HWOE of $16718.

getthechange · January 25

JayJay said:
I'm Loki is now a Level 10 horse (HWOE $49,401) and a NR 38.Prior to leaving WA, he was a level 6 with a HWOE of $16718.

correct - was placed in a L6/7 at GPC and 2nd in a L5$Lt48k at GPC 6 and 7 starts before leaving WA and would have been eligible for L5$LT$4k races when he left and probably woud till be racing at that level - how many races would he have won in those races nobody knows

by comparison in about the same time frame Cavalry call has won three L5$LT$8k and three L5$LT $4k races and is currently eligible for L5$LT$4k races despite him now being a L12

both systems allow horses to drop back but in WA non winners are level 1 and dont have o compete with Im Loki or Cavalry call - the lowest level they can drop to is level 4

Im Loki last win the horses he beat were L9 L5 L7 L7 L6 L3 L9 l3 L3 and all were under NR 50 the starting point for non winners in NR

Gilgamesh · January 25

Can complain about the system as a casual observer, Northam $L5,4000 having horses the like of Euston Flyer 19 wins nearly $140k, The Lightning Strike 12 wins $112K (I think a good thing in the race) drawn inside multiple 2 and 3 career win horses.

BUT there is an L2-L4 pref draw $L4 early on the card that doesnt have a full field, have these connections not nom'd for that race???

Or is it case there is some sort of pref system and they were moved to this race (possible second pref) just to make up numbers??

If not seems horrible placement and cant just blame the system.

aussiebattler · January 25

JayJay said:

what's HWOE GTE?

when was the last time a discretionary handicap race was programmed? at a Metro meeting

think the last time I saw discretionary handicaps it was at an R Class meeting in the country somewhere, seems kind of different approach to fill the fields. L7 - L15 looks like the parameters for the fields.

Markovina · January 25

Another ex WA Pacer , Radiant Amber , allways been a bit of a frustrating horse for mine both here and over East

But probably at present ( last 5-6 runs ) in career best form

And at Penrith they backed something from $4 into $1.50 1st up for a new stable and looked home for all money , until Radiant Amber got out - and honestly sprinted brilliantly , youd reckon it was Black Irish , and put paid to the 2s on pop - they had the money in the bag but ended up with nothing

getthechange · January 25

Gilgamesh said:
Can complain about the system as a casual observer, Northam $L5,4000 having horses the like of Euston Flyer 19 wins nearly $140k, The Lightning Strike 12 wins $112K (I think a good thing in the race) drawn inside multiple 2 and 3 career win horses.

BUT there is an L2-L4 pref draw $L4 early on the card that doesnt have a full field, have these connections not nom'd for that race???

Or is it case there is some sort of pref system and they were moved to this race (possible second pref) just to make up numbers??

If not seems horrible placement and cant just blame the system.

the trainers have the choice to nom for either race but the L5$Lt races are designed for horses dropping back in class

Euston Flyer - Lightning - Cavalry Call are not eligible for the L2/4 or L5/6 but the trainers of the lower level horses have opted not to go in the restricted L2/4 and L5/6 lower class races -

after 5 years they should know - duggan may have wanted to split his runners

Gilgamesh · January 25

How are horses with 2 and 3 wins respectively L5 horses but a horse woth 12 wins an L9??

Gilgamesh · January 25

L4 for win total of $7499 seems harsh.

Then L9 for nearly $36K.

Gilgamesh · January 25

Then L12 for $71k.

Seems massive advantage for horses up the top, why not just have more levels abd a more expanded system??

Arapaho · January 25

Gilga Hope this helps

HWOE -Handicap Win Only Earnings

L1 maiden

L2 under $3k

L3 under $6k

L4 under $9k

L5 under $12k

L6 under $18.5k

L7 under $25k

L8 under $32.5k

L9 under $40k

L10 under $55k

L11 under $70k

L12 under $85k

L13 under $100k

L14 nil

L15 over $100k open class

If a 4yo and older wins a race worth;

under 6k HWOE is $2999

over 6k and under 12k HWOE is $4500

over 12k and under 15k HWOE is $6750

over 15k and under 50k HWOE is $9000

over 50k and under 150k HWOE is $13500

over 150k and up HWOE is $18000

3yo only get penalised 75% of those amounts and

2yo only get penalised 25% of those amounts

Why some horses have won more races than other horses

and be on the same level is they have either won races as 2yo and 3yos or have won races with less stakemoney they are are not handicapped by levels it is the HWOE that counts

getthechange · January 25

adding to arapaho

level 9 is pretty much the equivalent of an M0

A horse winning 8 races at Pinjarra would have HWOE of $36,000(level 8)

A horse winning 13 races at Central would have HWOE of $38,987 (level 8)

both still eligible for the L7/9 GPM on Fridays

Gilgamesh · January 25

Can you put a jnr on an L5 and get it back to an L4 or is that only in select races??

AbbysAce · January 25

Gilgamesh said:
Can you put a jnr on an L5 and get it back to an L4 or is that only in select races??

Select races

Arapaho · January 26

Arapaho said:
Gilga Hope this helps

HWOE -Handicap Win Only Earnings
L1 maiden
L2 under $3k
L3 under $6k
L4 under $9k
L5 under $12k
L6 under $18.5k
L7 under $25k
L8 under $32.5k
L9 under $40k
L10 under $55k
L11 under $70k
L12 under $85k
L13 under $100k
L14 nil
L15 over $100k open class

If a 4yo and older wins a race worth;
under 6k HWOE is $2999
over 6k and under 12k HWOE is $4500
over 12k and under 15k HWOE is $6750
over 15k and under 50k HWOE is $9000
over 50k and under 150k HWOE is $13500
over 150k and up HWOE is $18000

3yo only get penalised 75% of those amounts and
2yo only get penalised 25% of those amounts
Why some horses have won more races than other horses
and be on the same level is they have either won races as 2yo and 3yos or have won races with less stakemoney they are are not handicapped by levels it is the HWOE that counts

Arapaho · January 26

I believe one thing that is looking in the face of RWWA that would help the handicapping procedure,

is L14 at tne moment has no cap if you brought that level in at say over $100K under $130K pushing the open class out to over $130K that would give a L13 three more wins at metro level of races worth between $15K-$50K a HWOE of $9000 for each instead of having to meet the real top notchers some of which have a HWOE of well over $200K.

At the moment some of these horses are finding it hard to win in open company and are shipped of to America or because they havent won are allowed to drop back to these condition races and while they may win another 3 of these races ,they stop the progress of another horse winning those races in his class.

Some will say,that will deplete the open class races and it may do for a little while,it will take time,at the moment if there is no cup race, they are depleted anyway.

This in reality should give every horse a chance to win 3 more races through all classes before they reach their used by date of racing in WA.

AbbysAce · January 26

Arapaho said:

Arapaho said:
Gilga Hope this helps

HWOE -Handicap Win Only Earnings
L1 maiden
L2 under $3k
L3 under $6k
L4 under $9k
L5 under $12k
L6 under $18.5k
L7 under $25k
L8 under $32.5k
L9 under $40k
L10 under $55k
L11 under $70k
L12 under $85k
L13 under $100k
L14 nil
L15 over $100k open class

If a 4yo and older wins a race worth;
under 6k HWOE is $2999
over 6k and under 12k HWOE is $4500
over 12k and under 15k HWOE is $6750
over 15k and under 50k HWOE is $9000
over 50k and under 150k HWOE is $13500
over 150k and up HWOE is $18000

3yo only get penalised 75% of those amounts and
2yo only get penalised 25% of those amounts
Why some horses have won more races than other horses
and be on the same level is they have either won races as 2yo and 3yos or have won races with less stakemoney they are are not handicapped by levels it is the HWOE that counts

3yo only get penalised 75% :)), should be zero

2yo only get penalised 25%, should be zero

They did this to reduce the long odds on shots in 3CO and COs, they is more long odds on shots under HWOE and they get on their mark in record time.

getthechange · January 26

AbbysAce said:

Arapaho said:

Arapaho said:
3yo only get penalised 75% :)), should be zero
2yo only get penalised 25%, should be zero

They did this to reduce the long odds on shots in 3CO and COs, they is more long odds on shots under HWOE and they get on their mark in record time.

NR 3yos take full penalty

NR 2yos get a seasonal adjustment at the end of the season which works out to a 50% penalty for the 2yo season

think NR has the 2yo and 3yo penalties where they should be

JayJay · January 26

Last four races at GP.....Stakes payout of $31k, $21k, $27k and $21k totaling.... $100,000.....for just 23 horses.

The winners started at $1.70, $1.60, $1.80 and $1.10......and the TabTouch win pools were $4847, $3169, $3408 and $2943. That is ridiculously expensive turnover for very little return, unsustainable.

This is a horrendous reflection of where the combination of the NBM, the handicap system, appalling programming and ridiculous scheduling has taken the Industry.....and no amount of old flannel........it's the change of season dates, it always happens at this time of the year, trainers are spelling their horses, fields will pick up as we approach the Nullabor etc etc....can hide reality.

That is why changes have to be made. It can't go on as it has, or there will be nothing to go on with, regardless of whether they spend $24.7 million at GP or not.

Gilgamesh · January 26

I had a bit of a laugh when the Rwwa fella was in radio during the week and said "they change to the feature race programming has seem a large number of the free for all horses out at this time"

You changed the program, it didnt just halpen by magic!

G'day Punter!

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