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MULTIPLE BETTING.
West Australian Racing
bookielover
2,709 posts
For those not involved in the PTT Punters Club, which would mean that you can't see the thread, nor read any of the posts, there has been some at times, fairly heated discussion, as to the merits of taking multi's.
By that I mean, taking an all up place bet on 4 horses in four races, or an all up win bet, or a mixture of an all win combined with a place bet.
So for that last one, just to explain, you back a horse in race 1 for a win, all up a horse in race 2 for a place, all up a horse in race 3 for a place, all up a horse in race 4 for the win. Or any combination like that.
Falcon and I, while agreeing that whomever is in the drivers seat has the right to place that weeks bank anyway that they see fit, have pointed out that multi betting is a sure way to the poor house.
From memory, and I stand to be corrected, I don't think that in the 40 weeks we have been going, which in itself is an achievement, anyone has landed a multi.
I have told the story about an old friend of my dads whom I got to know very well, with the unusual name of Dookums Humphries.
Dookums had a virtual monopoly on 4 place cards in the 40's 50's 60's and 70's in Melbourne, until he retired when he was 75, a multi-millionaire. Perhaps some older Victorians will remember him.
He was a very secretive man, but one day after he had retired, he told my dad and me that he would sometimes take 5,000 pounds a week from people trying to hit the big one, and very often he would have a skinner, i.e. no payout. This is back just after WW2 when money was plentiful and a house in a nice Suburb, sold for 2,000 pounds, and the average wage was three Pounds ten Shillings a week.
Falcon wrote about a bookie mate of his from the time, Falcon was living in Sydney, in the 80's, whom he calls Bookie Bill, who also won a stack on the four place card.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, what you did was add up the prices of the four horses that you selected in the four races that the "bookie" would select.
So it would be for example, because it was an all place bet, you would add 2/1 plus 3/1/ plus 4/1 plus 2/1 equals 11/1. Punters would have threepence or sixpence on or some might have a shilling or two shillings. They rarely struck it, but if they did, the whole neighborhood would hear how Joe won ten bob on the four place card.
This then leads into my question.
Have any of you at any time during your punting life, engaged for any length of time in various forms of multiple betting, and by that I would say doing it for at least 6 months would qualify, and shown a profit.
I would be fascinated to know if anyone devotes most of their punting bank each week to this form of betting, and if you are successful, how the hell you do it.
Believe me, Dookums told me the pitfalls, but I didn't listen and learned the hard way.
In many ways quaddie betting is just another form of all up betting, and I hate to think what quaddies have cost me over a 40 year period. And I have actually snagged a couple of really big ones.
Anyway, please feel free to offer your opinion.
As much as Falcon and I believe that it is a sure way to the Salvation Army Hostel, I would love someone to prove me and Falcon wrong.
By that I mean, taking an all up place bet on 4 horses in four races, or an all up win bet, or a mixture of an all win combined with a place bet.
So for that last one, just to explain, you back a horse in race 1 for a win, all up a horse in race 2 for a place, all up a horse in race 3 for a place, all up a horse in race 4 for the win. Or any combination like that.
Falcon and I, while agreeing that whomever is in the drivers seat has the right to place that weeks bank anyway that they see fit, have pointed out that multi betting is a sure way to the poor house.
From memory, and I stand to be corrected, I don't think that in the 40 weeks we have been going, which in itself is an achievement, anyone has landed a multi.
I have told the story about an old friend of my dads whom I got to know very well, with the unusual name of Dookums Humphries.
Dookums had a virtual monopoly on 4 place cards in the 40's 50's 60's and 70's in Melbourne, until he retired when he was 75, a multi-millionaire. Perhaps some older Victorians will remember him.
He was a very secretive man, but one day after he had retired, he told my dad and me that he would sometimes take 5,000 pounds a week from people trying to hit the big one, and very often he would have a skinner, i.e. no payout. This is back just after WW2 when money was plentiful and a house in a nice Suburb, sold for 2,000 pounds, and the average wage was three Pounds ten Shillings a week.
Falcon wrote about a bookie mate of his from the time, Falcon was living in Sydney, in the 80's, whom he calls Bookie Bill, who also won a stack on the four place card.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, what you did was add up the prices of the four horses that you selected in the four races that the "bookie" would select.
So it would be for example, because it was an all place bet, you would add 2/1 plus 3/1/ plus 4/1 plus 2/1 equals 11/1. Punters would have threepence or sixpence on or some might have a shilling or two shillings. They rarely struck it, but if they did, the whole neighborhood would hear how Joe won ten bob on the four place card.
This then leads into my question.
Have any of you at any time during your punting life, engaged for any length of time in various forms of multiple betting, and by that I would say doing it for at least 6 months would qualify, and shown a profit.
I would be fascinated to know if anyone devotes most of their punting bank each week to this form of betting, and if you are successful, how the hell you do it.
Believe me, Dookums told me the pitfalls, but I didn't listen and learned the hard way.
In many ways quaddie betting is just another form of all up betting, and I hate to think what quaddies have cost me over a 40 year period. And I have actually snagged a couple of really big ones.
Anyway, please feel free to offer your opinion.
As much as Falcon and I believe that it is a sure way to the Salvation Army Hostel, I would love someone to prove me and Falcon wrong.
Comments
I asked him once how he went...he just smiled.
that nobody got a mult yet in your comp is irrelevant.
it's no harder to pick a multi than a double or a quaddie or whatever.
what is relevant is that they are the worst bets there are, because of the math involved.
tax on a tax on a tax on a tax..............
or how to ensure you always get the worst of the prices.
If we're talking about the literal sense of a multi, then as an example if I fancy the Crows like I did today then to pick up the 40% interest on the Tigers at a 1.40 is a no brainer in my eyes.
Same does apply when a horse like Blackwood starts in the opening race, I'll take the 1.30 and get an extra 30% on my selection in the 2nd.
bookielover likes this post.
I'm not a fan but it is possible for a multi to be a good idea if it's fixed odds.
hash likes this post.
and rounding down would only happen once, rather than 'x' times.
the breakage would likely be huge, not to mention that you would be hurting your own dividends as your all up increased,
if you had 4 chances with fair odds of 5 bucks, you would expect 625 back, but get only 500 with a quaddie.
if you did the same 4 times in the win pool, you would get 5 *.855 = 4.28 rounded down to 4.2
thus 4.2*4.2*4.2*4.2 = 311, but in reality it's far worse than that, because your own bets will be lowering the divvy.
as far as rodent and fixed odds go, well rodent would know more than i about it, but they would probably have a max dividend and you would likely not be winning too many before you are cut off, and i would be surprised if they would let you on for bugger all in the first place.
bookielover likes this post.
Ra ra farken ra.
Had enough of this crap. [-( ~X(
Give it a rest Grandads!
>:/ I-)
Who gives a fat rats hairy friggin testicle what the tax is, or what the chances are, or how often we get one! #-o
The majority of us in the PTT syndicate couldnt give a ****. :-L
Us younger ones like to 'live on the edge' and have a gamble. o=>
Its about the excitement and 'what if' factor. <:-P
Weak as **** that you blokes keep whining and harping on about this!! [-(
What was once a lot of fun(we have probably turned over around $15,000) over the last 41 weeks, is turning to **** because we arent winning lately and 'multis' are getting the blame!! :-w >:P
Im happy to pull out of the syndicate and take my $25 and leave the 'old boys' to have there little win or each way bets.
Good on em. 8-|
Might start a new syndicate called the "Fawlty Multi" club...........anyone keen??
\m/ *aussie
Voodoo, Darkhorse, trevydards, jum, rooboy, Jordan, cisco, Nevershowsurprise, Carlosa, Thoroly_Bread likes this post.
This thread is not about the PTT syndicate
It's a discussion about the odds of winning a bet !
Which is interesting to us old Farts
Turn it off if you don't like it !
thefalcon, bookielover likes this post.
rustyh, Nevershowsurprise dislikes this post.
i feel suitably castigated rusty.
i'm not in your club so don't know how you bet or what.
how about you punish me with some more emoticons.
or if you like i could give my computer tips next week just to say i'm sorry for sticking my beak in! :-*
;)) Please. not about the PTT syndicate.......its all about the syndicate brady.
This is about post number 234 from the falcon and BL about how poxy 'multis' are!!
Ive let it slide til now. %-(
Now Im having my say on multis.
And just because I dont like it, why should I have to 'turn it off'?? :-q
Arent I entitled to whine and have a bitch in support of multis?? :-? :-?? :-bd
@rustyh I'll have a crack at your Fawlty Multi's - as long as you take cash. These new fandagled plastic card thingys have me stumped! :-?? ;)
See if we cant get at least 10 of us - say $50 each - retirement here we come - again =)) :))
rustyh, bookielover likes this post.
they may even give em some free multis with a bit of luck!! =))
you could even start your own petition
ban all those anti multi old farts from giving gratuitous advice on ptt.
vote 1 rusty! =))
didn't you want my free tips as a peace offering rusty! =))
rustyh, bookielover likes this post.
rustyh, bookielover likes this post.
Hey carey. :-h
Cheers old mate.
Will take you up on that offer for this week, and who knows, with some good tips from your good self, I can have a crack at a heap of multis! :-bd
You beauty. :-c
Thanks carey
\m/
bookielover likes this post.
not knocking quaddies where you can have as many selections in each leg as you like, or can afford....its just the 1 selection in 3 or 4 races that have proved to be ALMOST impossible.
I couldn't give a stuff, you can multi yourself to death for all I care.
bookielover likes this post.
rustyh likes this post.
I personally like to play around and have a few just for that reason....small outlay = high return, BUT should I be trying to make a living off the punt ...multi's wouldn't be my way of betting.
I can certainly understand BL and falcs thoughts on this matter so don't really see any problem with them.
cheers
.
notapunta, thefalcon, bookielover likes this post.
i'm in a pub punters club...$20 a week, 20 of us in it....bet $50 a week. the person in the chair can do what they like..lotto if they wish.
gives us about $900 2 weeks before xmas, a Godsend to some participants....xmas is covered.
bookielover likes this post.
All up multis on Pari mutuel no value unless your bet is small enough not to affect the 3rd and 4th legs.
Fixed odds when you can secure overs in early markets is a completely different kettle of fish.
Unfortunately if you invest say $1100 ($100 all up four horses in 11 combinations known as a Yankeee) and are successful you will be barred.
I have been moderately successful with this type of bet using a total stake of $110.
Get two in almost always a loss, three in a modest profit and all four in a very good return on outlay.
When quaddies were introduced into WA I thought it would be my superannuation with the average punter not having full access to betting information on the latter legs.
I can assure that that has not been the case and I have not taken a quaddie for at least 2 years.
Each to his own.
thefalcon likes this post.
Carey's astute observation about percentage take out in a multi, is the reason, that unless there is a jackpot in a quaddie pool, which rarely happens outside Queensland nowadays, or a jackpot in a straight 6 where the pool is around the 2 million mark plus, the pros that I know who used to take quaddies because it was a 15% takeout in the old days, no longer take them, or a straight 6.
They agree with Carey, that the 20% or 5% takeout for each leg, is better than 17% taken out in each leg of a four horse all up bet, but they tell me that flexi betting allowing people to take 1% of a quaddie which results in more people getting the quaddie, has too great an effect on the dividend.
As an aside, in the good old days, one thing that set the pros apart from the "sheep" as they called them, with taking quaddies, was this.
In the days when two horses were bracketed so that there were only 9 brackets containing two horses each, in each leg, like 99% of the sheep out there, I would take one or two favorite brackets in the first and second leg, and the two fields in the last two legs hoping for a result in those two legs.
The 1% of pros went the other way. They would take the fields in the first two legs into the faves in the last two.
If they got a 20/1 bracket in the first leg, it would get rid of about 60% of the pool, such was the weight of money on the favourite brackets. Remember, there was no flexi betting then. If they got another 20/1 shot in leg two, then they would have around 75-80% percent of the pool going for them even if the two favourites won the last two legs. This also allowed them to do some business in the last leg, assuming they had the first three in, and back a few horses to at the very least get their stake back or show a decent profit no matter who won.
The % takeout now, and the non brackets, plus flexi betting has seen the demise of this once preferred form of betting for the pros.
I'll tell you how much betting on the Tote is stuffed from a pro punter point of view.
We used to have a dedicated pro punters room on each track, We haven't had one for at least the last 8 years. All the pros who believed they had an edge Totewise over the ordinary punter out there, now no longer have that edge because the % takeout is so large. So they have given the game away. I don't know if you ever had such a room in Perth, but if you did, I doubt you have one now.
I understand Chris' methodology and it makes a lot of sense, particularly where sports multi's are concerned.
When you think about it, more sports multi's are landed than any other form of multi betting.. I have got mates of mine who have switched from racing to sports betting. They, like Chris, love taking multi's on the AFL.
Sports betting is the fastest growing form of betting, and will continue to grow. Paul shares Chris's view, and finds it works for him too. May the luck continue, Chris and Paul.
The cold hard facts as to why sports betting has taken over are, who wants to bet into a Tote pool with 20-25% takeouts, and on horses that may or may not have been given drugs.
Rodent makes a fair point about having an edge in an all up bet on fixed odds, but I have to agree with Carey. Land one too many, and you are barred.
Aquanita's post should be compulsory reading for everyone, whether you are successful at taking multi's or not. He understands the pitfalls, and has obviously learned from his experience.
He ends with to each his own, a sentiment that should have total agreement.
To Rusty and company.
If you had read my post which commenced this thread, my very first sentence immediately talks about the Punters Club, and the "some, at times, fairly heated discussion as to the merits of taking multi's". I also state that Falcon and I respect the right of those in the drivers seat to bet the way they want, but we believe that taking multi's is a sure way to the poor house.
I wrote that, because I wanted to be upfront, and give some context to the reason that I had asked the question about multi's. Had I not done so, you would have had every right to accuse me of hiding the real motive behind the question.
So Rusty, you are right about my motivation for asking the question, but it's not ALL about the Punters Club.
I have said on PTT PC, that I'm having fun, and that yes, we would love to win some money, but if it wasn't fun, Falcon and I would have taken out our share of the bank when it was up around $6,000 giving us a profit of around $100.00. Some people did.
I will let Falcon speak for himself, but I have to say that I see the punters club as a friendly enjoyable pastime, which, if it can show us all a profit would be an added bonus, and the banter between us all and cheering on winners, and commiserating with losers has been part of that enjoyment. Yes, even when we are unsuccessful.
While the motivation behind this thread was the discussion on the Punters Club, the question, as you quite rightly pointed out Brady, and what Voodoo added, was a genuine attempt to see if someone out there in PTT land, had a magic formula that they might be able to pass on to all of us, let alone the members of the Punters Club, so that we might all benefit from their success.
I have already learnt something from Chris' post which works for him and I'm going to give it a go. At the same time, Carey, Voodoo and Aquanita sort of bring things back to reality.
That old expression that you never stop learning, is probably more relevant in the punting caper, than in any other.
I'm open to all suggestions, well, nice ones anyway.
So I look forward to hopefully reading more posts on this topic, which might benefit all of us, and present us with ways of punting that we had never before considered.
jum, Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.
i can remember when i was even more stupid than i am now.
i was in the guineas at caulfield(long gone) where there was probably 50 or more bookies just in that outside ring,
some pretender called mark read being one of them
anyway, i had a 4 place bet and got 16/1 from memory for my few dollars.
they all won and they were the quadrella legs i realised later.
timetheus, prodromus, warm feeling, and adrian and it paid i think 600 or 700 bucks for the 50 cents
lesson learned.
that's when i decided to stop gambling and start learning.
and now i have come the full circle coz betting does not interest me much(at all) these days.
walking beaches is a much better pastime.
bookielover likes this post.
cheers
Ridersonthestorm33, bookielover likes this post.
Now everyone has access to good quality information and due to this opinions do not differ greatly and betting markets are in the main reasonably close.
Even when overs do exist from time to time eg Bet365 you are either barred or extremely limited when trying to get on.
Years ago this information was not available and the punter who was prepared to do the work could have an advantage over bookmakers and other punters.
The introduction of live vision to the masses was a significant factor also in levelling the playing field.
So at the end of the day you have to be very clever to beat the takeout or be on the receiving end of a substantial rebate, probably both.
bookielover likes this post.
bookielover likes this post.
Syndicates biggest win was a multi. $1660.
Would of been $2800 except for a major deduction from a late scratching.
<:-P
Just sayin.
Carlosa, bookielover likes this post.
Just saying !
bookielover likes this post.
couldn't resist...just taking the p*ss...... =D>
bookielover likes this post.
Spend $1 - first leg places, get $3 back
Spend $3 - second leg places, get $12 back
Spend the $12 on the third leg at 4/1, it places - get $60 back
Spend the $60 on the fourth leg at 2/1 , it places get $180 back
that's 179/1
Is my maths that bad or am I missing the bleeding obvious, or is this the era the term "mug punter" was born?