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GP- 8/3 WA 2yo Sales Classic Finals Night

Harness & Greyhounds

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  • freodockersfreodockers    208 posts
    Agree entirely MJ hence my comments BOB on Saturday night.
    Drivers trainers owners of first three would have known what was going to unfold before the race. And by the early driving tactics of one particular driver it was too obvious.
    Nothing said nothing done.
    leaves a huge opportunity for those in the know.
    Meanwhile the general public continue to shake their heads.
    "Cheats on chariots" I think is a common term used for such examples.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    2,926 posts
    Offthebit said:

    Jnr hands up on $1.65 shot over the sprint trip after getting a soft lead and doesn’t even get queried. Can anyone tell me the last time they saw an odds on pop chose to hand up over a mile at gp?




    Manning in it's heat!

    It took a sit in its bloody heat, was $1.75.

    IT WAS DRIVEN THE SAME AS IN ITS HEAT!!!!!

    Fair dinkum some of you need to have a break from the punt or something if you are going to get so fired up about that race.

    The horse JP drove appeard to have the better gste speed from the heats and appeard to switch off a bit making it a good horse to sit on. Now admittedly it didnt ping the start but it was still a grwat horse to trail into it and being that it was its stablemate he was hardly going to hold it in.

    Kane_26, Rocket_Reign likes this post.

  • MorganJamesMorganJames    116 posts
    Yes it was a heat only had  6 starters .
    First 5 Qualify...
    If there was no stablemate would of it sat??

    Markovina, Offthebit likes this post.

  • batfinkbatfink    11 posts

    Agree entirely MJ hence my comments BOB on Saturday night.
    Drivers trainers owners of first three would have known what was going to unfold before the race. And by the early driving tactics of one particular driver it was too obvious.
    Nothing said nothing done.
    leaves a huge opportunity for those in the know.
    Meanwhile the general public continue to shake their heads.
    "Cheats on chariots" I think is a common term used for such examples.


    batfink likes this post.

  • batfinkbatfink    11 posts
    Couldn’t agree more
  • NagsheadNagshead    3 posts
    I know some of the owners of the second horse and they we definitely not told of plans to hand up and take a sit. They were furious and made it known
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,003 posts

    Yes it was a heat only had  6 starters .
    First 5 Qualify...
    If there was no stablemate would of it sat??
    Agree

    If the 2nd horse was trained by G Hall Snr - there is no chance in hell that it would of handed up
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,134 posts
                                        What would happen in this scenario

    If Justin prentice says to the stewards prior to the race......I have done my speedmaps on very minimal exposed form....My belief the marketplace (punters perception) have got it wrong regards my two horses and major martini is a way better horse then manning at this stage of there careers.

    My first and foremost obligation is to my owners to earn maximum dollars for each horse that will be achieved by major martini leading.&manning sitting in my opinion...

    What does the steward answer with mr, prentice  majority of punters are on manning as its showing 1.60 fixed  compared to major martini who is showing 2.50 fixed, so its our belief if mr. hall finds the leader first his not to hand up plus on racing radio.it was said mr hall had choice of drives.Its a terrible look but you can see how powerless the stewards are the best they can do is say mr.prentice your a naughty boy, but clever.

         

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  • batfinkbatfink    11 posts
    Nagshead said:

    I know some of the owners of the second horse and they we definitely not told of plans to hand up and take a sit. They were furious and made it known

    Nagshead said:

    I know some of the owners of the second horse and they we definitely not told of plans to hand up and take a sit. They were furious and made it known




    Yes I am one of those owners, and I’m livid at the “boat race” that eventuated.
    Disgraceful in the extreme
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,402 posts
    edited March 11
    That user name does bring back good memories of Batfink and Karate - one of the all time legendary great cartoons!
    The villian was a "mad scientist" Hugo A Go Go.

    Batfink's wings we were often told were "shields of steel". The villian had a mechanical baby - Goo Goo A Go Go haha

    batfink likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    245 posts
    batfink said:

    Nagshead said:

    I know some of the owners of the second horse and they we definitely not told of plans to hand up and take a sit. They were furious and made it known

    Nagshead said:

    I know some of the owners of the second horse and they we definitely not told of plans to hand up and take a sit. They were furious and made it known




    Yes I am one of those owners, and I’m livid at the “boat race” that eventuated.
    Disgraceful in the extreme



    Difficult position Justin was in really.. On Manning’s heat win with the turn of foot shown you’d think he would of outsprinted the other, Not like Justin didn’t give it every chance to beat him either he put the handlebars down coming into the back straight making sure Manning would get clear running. Too call it a boat race is a little harsh and unfair on Justin and frankly a little rude from a stable client

    Cant_Refuse, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • ToepuntitToepuntit    126 posts
    As a client if you aren't happy depending on the other owners wouldn't you move the horse to another trainer if you weren't happy?
  • OffthebitOffthebit    557 posts
    edited March 11
    Definitely not a boat race. If it was a boat race Justin would have put the handbrake on at the bell and locked Jnr away. But any way you slice it and dice it, it just looked ordinary.
    Thanks for the blast gilga but I seem to have a few supporters chime in after your comments. All good though mate.....everyone is entitled to there opinion.

    If some of these comments above about the owners not being told about Jnr's pre race tactic of handing up are true, wow wee I find that staggering. I'm not into bashing Justin at all, I have nothing but admiration for what he has achieved as a trainer and ambassador for this sport over the last 10 years or so.
    Here's my theory on why he may not have told them. If he tells them pre race that there hot pot would be handing up they may have kicked up a stink and said no way mate.....it's a $100k race and we have the hot pot....we want to lead at all costs. He would had to have caved into the pressure from the owners and that would have completely stuffed up his masterplan. That's my uneducated guess anyway
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,402 posts
    edited March 11
    Didn't bet on the race but you know when gave the eventual winner a big chance ?

    When all that money came for Manning!
    Always say to a few mates in this punting game - what's black is white and what's white is black.
    Take nothing for granted and don't let anything surprise you.

    Not being smart or anything but when Manning was sort of plunged - thought now I give that stablemate a big hope. Don't ask why - had no thoughts on how the race might be run - it was just the black and white theory.
  • freodockersfreodockers    208 posts
    Just read stewards report and begins with usual, trainers with multiple runners questioned on driving tactics.
    Stewards report confirms no queries on driving tactics.
    As a punter, owner or competing connections you are only left to conclude that the advice to the stewards was the pre race favourite was going to hand up the lead to the stablemate and second favourite.
    Just doesn't make sense that such an important factor in a $100,000.00 dollar race is not released to the general public including competing owners, trainers and drivers not to mention punters.
    If this had been released prior to the running of the race then we would not be having this conversation.
    In my opinion the pre race tactics of "multiple runners" should be announced publicly at least 5 hours before the event running on RWWA website and should be noted in the stewards report to stop people guessing.
    Long story short IMO the connections of the first two horses have guaranteed 1st and 2nd by driving the way they did.
    That to me is a "boat race". No questions asked.
    Problem is The controlling body are not smart or strong enough to have procedures in place to stop it.
    Or they choose to ignore to prevent bad publicity.

    Offthebit likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    1,134 posts
    Tactics shouldn't have to be revelled to the general public.Plus more so for the opposition to know of your intent which in turn could give them a competive edge its a horse race but your pre race intentions should be noted and released in steward reports so the general public can see it was noted prior.

    We have discussed this before stewards should have the power to add odm penalties for up to three runs for misdemeanors in these instances.

    Make this particular race a case history.  hypothetical  prentice tells stewards manning is aiming to lead and major martini is to take a sit. As we all seen manning was never going to lead unless major martini broke....Now this race becomes pretty cut and dried manning would become odm for one, two, or three runs odm at stewards discrection on how bad the look was.

    If the trainers of multiple runners know this could happen they would think twice about playing ducks&drakes.
    You may well say what about the poor owners 1. they may have been in the know so penalty warranted.2. If not and the trainer has blatantly lied to them do they really want to be involved with him..Provision on appeal to overturn odms if horse is moved on.3.If trainer hasn't incriminated himself by saying nothing to owners prior he will have to explain  why there  horse is odm..

    You may have 100k race in a fortnight makes it a little bit harder odm…..Harness racing is declining at rapid rate if we don't make changes to help combat the do as I like approach because I have three runners in a race.

    batfink, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,003 posts
    Does any other state have this rule - that if you have multiple runners in a race - you have to pre race divulge to the stewards the tactics for each runner - i dont think they have

    However all states have struggled even with 1 stable runner in the race - what are your tactics - are you going to vary them - Vic had a rule up to last year - where you made a public announcement - you may vary your tactics - doesnt mean you have to do- circumstances permitting 

    However the rule - that you must drive your horse - so it finishes in the best possible position  - that rule should be the No 1 rule in the book - and supersedes any other rule re pre race and race tactics

    And the 2nd horse  ( not criticising Jnr at all because he was driving to the trainers instructions ) if that was driven by Trevor Warwick FRK Lou Austin  Lindsay Harper - in fact you could make a list of 20 of them - and it was their only runner in the race - and they drew where the fave drew in a 100k  race - not one of them would have handed up

    Someone made the comment - the 2nd horse had every chance - what a load of nonsense - they came home in a touch over 56 for 2year olds . Its best chance of winning was to lead  ( which it got on its ear ) all the way - and everyone knows that

    As Morgan James said - terrible look for the industry

    freodockers, Offthebit, batfink, Browny123 likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    245 posts
    Markovina said:

    Does any other state have this rule - that if you have multiple runners in a race - you have to pre race divulge to the stewards the tactics for each runner - i dont think they have

    However all states have struggled even with 1 stable runner in the race - what are your tactics - are you going to vary them - Vic had a rule up to last year - where you made a public announcement - you may vary your tactics - doesnt mean you have to do- circumstances permitting 

    However the rule - that you must drive your horse - so it finishes in the best possible position  - that rule should be the No 1 rule in the book - and supersedes any other rule re pre race and race tactics

    And the 2nd horse  ( not criticising Jnr at all because he was driving to the trainers instructions ) if that was driven by Trevor Warwick FRK Lou Austin  Lindsay Harper - in fact you could make a list of 20 of them - and it was their only runner in the race - and they drew where the fave drew in a 100k  race - not one of them would have handed up

    Someone made the comment - the 2nd horse had every chance - what a load of nonsense - they came home in a touch over 56 for 2year olds . Its best chance of winning was to lead  ( which it got on its ear ) all the way - and everyone knows that

    As Morgan James said - terrible look for the industry




    Okay Marko just a quick one from the other side of things here.. Where in its form tells you that’s its best chance was to lead and win? Or are you basing it on the market? Not agreeing or disagreeing with you but on paper there’s no reason it should of led apart from market and speculation
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,003 posts
    I think it should of kept of the lead for the folowing reasons

    (1) It got the lead so easily - if it had to be driven really hard for say for 400-500 metres in a real quick qtr - then if it handed up id have no problem

    (2) Im pretty sure it had the quickest mile rate in the heats

    I think Rocket - if you trained the 2nd horse- and especially if you owned it - 100k race - 60k to the winner  i think you would have  kept the lead - 1700 metre sprint race

    However i think the rules are the big problem - and every state has grappled with this issue

    batfink likes this post.

  • Browny123Browny123    81 posts
    This race was no different to the miracle mile..I guarantee anything you want that Spankem or Major Martini wouldn’t find the front if they wore different colours...

    Offthebit, savethegame, batfink likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    245 posts
    Markovina said:

    I think it should of kept of the lead for the folowing reasons

    (1) It got the lead so easily - if it had to be driven really hard for say for 400-500 metres in a real quick qtr - then if it handed up id have no problem

    (2) Im pretty sure it had the quickest mile rate in the heats

    I think Rocket - if you trained the 2nd horse- and especially if you owned it - 100k race - 60k to the winner  i think you would have  kept the lead - 1700 metre sprint race

    However i think the rules are the big problem - and every state has grappled with this issue




    My horse once sat at the 1000 metre mark in the 100k sales race, does that ruin your theory? Haha
  • freodockersfreodockers    208 posts
    RR the official margin was 3.7 metres.
    The question has to be asked if the leader held the lead over a 1700 mtr trip would the results have been reversed.
    Very unusual for a short priced favourite to hand up over this distance at GP, yet no communication from the stewards.
    As Marko says the rules stipulate the driver must afford every opportunity for their horse to finish in the best possible position.
    You may say the trainer knew the best horse was the eventual leader. But if it was that cut and dry why would G Hall Jnr take the drive on the inferior horse (favourite) when he had the option to drive either on racing radio.
    Instead he takes the drive on the short priced favourite and gives any opportunity of winning the race away by handing up the lead.
    That to me is not giving your horse the best opportunity to perform to its best.
    I still maintain the whole issue with this race is the lack of communication or action by the stewards.
    Give the general public some feedback please !!!
    And stop the innuendo.

    batfink, Offthebit likes this post.

  • ToepuntitToepuntit    126 posts
    Handing up gave both stable runners their best chance of finishing 1 & 2, rather than 1 breezing and dropping out
  • batfinkbatfink    11 posts
    That’s a really intelligent comment (not) Toepuntit. Let’s disregard the respective owners, the $60,000 first prize and just make sure the stable runs a quinella (which they 100% would have anyway ... except Manning wins)

    freodockers, Offthebit likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    208 posts
    I don't think they would have told the stewards they are going to drive to run first and second regardless of finishing order.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,309 posts
    Put a sprint lane in at GP and the scenarios, responsibilities, interpretations, instructions and tactics change in that race.

     
  • Kane_26Kane_26    70 posts
    The guys saying junior drove Manning cause it's a better horse have got it wrong, he said on the radio Tuesday morning he drove Manning as Justin owns Major Martini so Justin then can't drive Manning. @freodockers I guess I'm opposite to you, as long as the stewards knew the pre race plan there is absolutely no issue as far as I'm concerned.

    It's a race at the end of the day, it's not the driver and trainers jobs to tell you exactly how a race will be run. That's part of punting guys.

    Rocket_Reign, Toepuntit likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    1,134 posts
    What did ernie manning reckon batfink think read he has three shares in manning, would have been back to the studio.
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,134 posts
    racing radio jnr went for manning  picking it over stablemate was said by matt young,  kane thought Justin would have to drive the one he owned..plus ernie manning tipped major martini. 
  • batfinkbatfink    11 posts

    What did ernie manning reckon batfink think read he has three shares in manning, would have been back to the studio.


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