Harness 2025

Chopchop43 · February 2025

We were constantly told about how good the hwoe system was and how well it was apparently doing, this will be no different the proof will be when turnover figures are shown after a sustained period of time, propaganda = non sense

AbbysAce · February 2025

Are more races prefential barrier draw rather than randow barrier draw?

To me it looks that way.

warrenrobinson · February 2025

I believe so, JJ would know the breakdown.

warrenrobinson · February 2025

The RWWA Status report 2023/24 released today certainly worth a read, google RWWA status report 2023/24.

Chopchop43 · February 2025

So in reference to turnover figures oncourse mobile, is that only referring to using tabtouch ??? If so to not include all figures from the all corporates is a little misleading

Gilgamesh · June 2025

G'Day all, hope you are all well.

I just wanted to throw in a few comments about the handicapping changes and how they are evolving.

Now I'm sure that if pushed many could find an infinite number of negatives but I just wanted to touch on a few positives from my perspective.

We are finally moving away from the scenario of if you got 100 people to look at a meeting 95 out of the 100 would suggest to you the exact same way that each race would be run - drivers, connections and punters are actually having to think again, there's some entertainment factor about the racing.

As a punter you can actually get a bit of reward for effort, more markets have opened up again with races actually having EW plays and novelty dividends that are actually worth targeting without needing an element of fluke to get a decent dividend.

But without doubt the single biggest positive is the number of new names that have been greeting the judge. The previous system seemed to offer little to no reason to give a junior driver a go. Now there must be almost double figure new names that are winning races that were no chance 12 months ago. That brings with them new people with their family and friends no doubt following along, sure there are some errors but more often than not I feel like there is a genuine excitement factor about a young person in the winners circle.

Without decent numbers the sport can't go anywhere so I hope this is a sign of things to come and the sport can continue to regenerate.

sonny · June 2025

Hi Gilga , Welcome Back, Now for V.K to come back and turnover will increase with your punting selections....

warrenrobinson · June 2025

Gilgamesh said:
G'Day all, hope you are all well.

I just wanted to throw in a few comments about the handicapping changes and how they are evolving.

Now I'm sure that if pushed many could find an infinite number of negatives but I just wanted to touch on a few positives from my perspective.

We are finally moving away from the scenario of if you got 100 people to look at a meeting 95 out of the 100 would suggest to you the exact same way that each race would be run - drivers, connections and punters are actually having to think again, there's some entertainment factor about the racing.

As a punter you can actually get a bit of reward for effort, more markets have opened up again with races actually having EW plays and novelty dividends that are actually worth targeting without needing an element of fluke to get a decent dividend.

But without doubt the single biggest positive is the number of new names that have been greeting the judge. The previous system seemed to offer little to no reason to give a junior driver a go. Now there must be almost double figure new names that are winning races that were no chance 12 months ago. That brings with them new people with their family and friends no doubt following along, sure there are some errors but more often than not I feel like there is a genuine excitement factor about a young person in the winners circle.

Without decent numbers the sport can't go anywhere so I hope this is a sign of things to come and the sport can continue to regenerate.

warrenrobinson · June 2025

Great post Gilgamesh, When you look at the statistics on Harness over the last 45 years our participation rate has fallen 70% Breeders, Owners, Trainers ,Drivers and clubs which in turn has affected turnover so hopefully with the the new wave of participants coming through will help maintain the current numbers. We have to increase our footprint to grow our industry. Some fools believe you shrink the footprint to grow.

Chopchop43 · June 2025

warrenrobinson said:
Great post Gilgamesh, When you look at the statistics on Harness over the last 45 years our participation rate has fallen 70% Breeders, Owners, Trainers ,Drivers and clubs which in turn has affected turnover so hopefully with the the new wave of participants coming through will help maintain the current numbers. We have to increase our footprint to grow our industry. Some fools believe you shrink the footprint to grow.

working in Queensland i believe

sonny · June 2025

I will be at the inters .. will ask the participants how they think they are travelling..Trainers and drivers..

JayJay · June 2025

4's on was a good bet, never in doubt.

Chopchop43 · June 2025

JayJay said:
4's on was a good bet, never in doubt.

absolute comedy gold by you 2 , never seen 2 people take it so personal when people don't agree with their opinion

sonny · June 2025

Hi Chop, They are taking the p..., I had it priced at 5s on...

Chopchop43 · June 2025

sonny said:
Hi Chop, They are taking the p..., I had it priced at 5s on...

I'm all for taking the piss , just some people carry on like pork chops when its them on the recieving end if you can dish it don't cry a river when given back

warrenrobinson · June 2025

Adrian Gurvitz- Classic 1982 great song.

JayJay · July 2025

Who the hell is Adrian Gurvitz, personally I've never hear of him. Forward pocket for Carlton?

Too kryptic for an old bloke like me, I must be drowning in the mythical river of tears ....or choking on my pork chop.

5's on still a good price and remember, ""i before e except after c"

warrenrobinson · July 2025

Good pick up jayjay. Classic is a great song.

Chopchop43 · July 2025

JayJay said:
Who the hell is Adrian Gurvitz, personally I've never hear of him. Forward pocket for Carlton?

Too kryptic for an old bloke like me, I must be drowning in the mythical river of tears ....or choking on my pork chop.

5's on still a good price and remember, ""i before e except after c"

I like how this all stems back to the fact you couldn't prove rationalisation wasn't indeed working in Queensland, rather than agree to disagree like adults you two act like absolute children with your sly little digs , I can see now why rwwa take what you's say with a grain of salt, just curious, if you's are so anti rwwa and so sour on the industry why do you continue to remain involved ???

warrenrobinson · July 2025

Opinion's are worthless without facts. RWWA have failed the Harness Industry fact not our opinion the Annual Reports and Status Reports state that so maybe you should take time to read them. I remain involved because i can ;)

JayJay · July 2025

I am not exactly sure what my continued involvement in the Industry has to do with you but I'll give you a hint.....it starts with F, rhymes with duck and ends with all. Remain curious.

sonny · July 2025

Hi Chop, Do you know many Trainers/Drivers in Qld, beside the one who moved there recently from W.A..?

Chopchop43 · July 2025

warrenrobinson said:
Opinion's are worthless without facts. RWWA have failed the Harness Industry fact not our opinion the Annual Reports and Status Reports state that so maybe you should take time to read them. I remain involved because i can ;)

had the facts there you just refuse to accept facts when they don't back up your opinion

Chopchop43 · July 2025

sonny said:
Hi Chop, Do you know many Trainers/Drivers in Qld, beside the one who moved there recently from W.A..?

i know enough trainers/drivers over east in general too know that they all see Queensland as a market on the improve while ourselves and Victoria are on the decline, alot of similarities but us and Vic an abundance of outer country tracks , a shrinking pool of horses and an industry going backwards funny that

sonny · July 2025

Hi Chop , What do you mean in general?

Chopchop43 · July 2025

sonny said:
Hi Chop , What do you mean in general?

Hi sonny , by general i purely mean that i know of enough participants over east who see Queensland as a harness racing market on the improve, enough so that i can make a general comment in that rationalisation seems to have worked over there, I know some disagree with that sentiment but in a previous discussion on here I did put forward the facts and figures backing that up

JayJay · July 2025

Here we go again. "General" means very little. Throw some numbers up. The "I know enough" statement is meaningless. 1, 10, 20, 50, 100?......How many do you know and have all of them stated that? Have you recently conversed with them to discuss this? Maybe you have, great but those sort of general statements are worthless.

Do they all see it as a market on the improve? All of them? Great. Are they moving there?

It is a bit like your statements of the past. "Everybody I speak to absolutely hates National Ratings". Do they? How many? Has there been a survey? What states are they in? What are the numbers? How many support or how many oppose? Show me the figures. Otherwise, it is just a gut feeling, just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence not supported by facts, and it is meaningless.

You keep promoting Queensland as the nadir of Harness Racing. And their Annual Reports show some positive trends in the last 5 years. Unquestionable. They are facts.

However, were those latent positive trends post rationalisation which happened decades ago when they had tracks every where through out the hinterland, dozens and dozens of clubs that raced for $150 per race, 4 races, 6 horses doubling up? Places like Townsville, Ayr, Rocklea, Rockhampton, Mackay, Maryborough, Ipswich, Innisfail, West Moreton, Downs, Charters Towers, Cairns, Mount Isa....That was clearly an unsustainable situation requiring action but now they are left with a tiny footprint, just 3 tracks, 2 in reality, as Marburg races infrequently for sustenance stakes.

But....and a BIG but....the same reports also show that in 23/24, turnover was down 8% and product revenue was down 22.6%.

If it is all going so swimmingly, what are the horse population numbers? What are their foaling numbers? What are their registered trainer and licensed reinsperson numbers? You cannot mount a credible argument based on anecdotal stories or "gut feel" or the opinion of a few people you may have talked to.

Same applies to the ongoing discrediting of facts and excuses put forward about RWWA's performance, and turnover and comparisons between all the clubs on a revenue generated versus stakes paid basis, ...and all the other facts that are published on this forum. They were all based on facts produced in RWWA Annual Status Reports and Annual Reports to Parliament, they were all based on data circulated at Industry Information Sessions that were conducted all over the state on numerous occasions, sessions that many did not attend because they didn't need to attend, they already "knew it all", all based on data made available to Industry Representative Groups, all on the public record. Yet disputed by the "know it alls"" to the point of outright denialism.

If data was published on this forum on average price of favourites or average price of winners or increased opportunities for Concession drivers or whatever after changeover to NR, there was "never enough data" or it "was early days" or "too small a sample" or "you're just cherry picking to suit your agenda or narrative"...all the same old specious arguments, just general reactive commentary with very little if any facts to back up the view.

But again, you have stated you don't need to read those reports, you don't need to attend those sessions, you don't need to attend meetings,you don't need to read Industry Body Submissions.

Well, rather than be curious about why I or anyone else retains an involvement in the Industry, which quite frankly is absolutely none of your bloody business, do some reading. Familiarise yourself with facts like GP Metro Meetings generating Revenue of just $5.13 million on a stakes payout of $15.6 million at 32.9 cents in the dollar and without boring everyone senseless with a repeat of all clubs figures which have been posted ad nauseum, acquaint yourself with Wagin at 63.5 cents in the dollar, Busselton at 57.2 cents in the dollar or Northam at 53.4 or even Narrogin at 45.0 or Collie at 43.0. Facts, cold hard facts, not vague anecdotal gut feelings.

Go back in time and see what past rationalisation did to the Industry in Western Australia (not in Queensland or anywhere else, every jurisdiction has its own parameters). Look at the figures on horse populations, namings, foaling statistics, licensed personnel etc. It's all there, in black and white, there is a case study for all to read...and then hand on heart state that rationalisation via club and track elimination (do we need to list them all again?) didn't drive a dagger through the heart of the Industry from which it has never really recovered. And yet that is the proposition being floated to cure all our ills? Do it again? Ignore history? Okay, good luck there, won't bother me, Ill be long gone. But history tells us it won't work, it won't future proof the Industry (for those who remember the closure and sale of Richmond Raceway).

If I posted on here free ice creams on course for all, you would find cause to oppose, dispute denigrate or whatever...and that is your undeniable right, no question, it is a democracy, go for your life....but until you start backing your arguments with facts based on reading and researching actual data, your statements have little credibility in my opinion.

Chopchop43 · July 2025

JayJay said:
Here we go again. "General" means very little. Throw some numbers up. The "I know enough" statement is meaningless. 1, 10, 20, 50, 100?......How many do you know and have all of them stated that? Have you recently conversed with them to discuss this? Maybe you have, great but those sort of general statements are worthless.

Do they all see it as a market on the improve? All of them? Great. Are they moving there?

It is a bit like your statements of the past. "Everybody I speak to absolutely hates National Ratings". Do they? How many? Has there been a survey? What states are they in? What are the numbers? How many support or how many oppose? Show me the figures. Otherwise, it is just a gut feeling, just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence not supported by facts, and it is meaningless.

You keep promoting Queensland as the nadir of Harness Racing. And their Annual Reports show some positive trends in the last 5 years. Unquestionable. They are facts.

However, were those latent positive trends post rationalisation which happened decades ago when they had tracks every where through out the hinterland, dozens and dozens of clubs that raced for $150 per race, 4 races, 6 horses doubling up? Places like Townsville, Ayr, Rocklea, Rockhampton, Mackay, Maryborough, Ipswich, Innisfail, West Moreton, Downs, Charters Towers, Cairns, Mount Isa....That was clearly an unsustainable situation requiring action but now they are left with a tiny footprint, just 3 tracks, 2 in reality, as Marburg races infrequently for sustenance stakes.

But....and a BIG but....the same reports also show that in 23/24, turnover was down 8% and product revenue was down 22.6%.

If it is all going so swimmingly, what are the horse population numbers? What are their foaling numbers? What are their registered trainer and licensed reinsperson numbers? You cannot mount a credible argument based on anecdotal stories or "gut feel" or the opinion of a few people you may have talked to.

Same applies to the ongoing discrediting of facts and excuses put forward about RWWA's performance, and turnover and comparisons between all the clubs on a revenue generated versus stakes paid basis, ...and all the other facts that are published on this forum. They were all based on facts produced in RWWA Annual Status Reports and Annual Reports to Parliament, they were all based on data circulated at Industry Information Sessions that were conducted all over the state on numerous occasions, sessions that many did not attend because they didn't need to attend, they already "knew it all", all based on data made available to Industry Representative Groups, all on the public record. Yet disputed by the "know it alls"" to the point of outright denialism.

If data was published on this forum on average price of favourites or average price of winners or increased opportunities for Concession drivers or whatever after changeover to NR, there was "never enough data" or it "was early days" or "too small a sample" or "you're just cherry picking to suit your agenda or narrative"...all the same old specious arguments, just general reactive commentary with very little if any facts to back up the view.

But again, you have stated you don't need to read those reports, you don't need to attend those sessions, you don't need to attend meetings,you don't need to read Industry Body Submissions.

Well, rather than be curious about why I or anyone else retains an involvement in the Industry, which quite frankly is absolutely none of your bloody business, do some reading. Familiarise yourself with facts like GP Metro Meetings generating Revenue of just $5.13 million on a stakes payout of $15.6 million at 32.9 cents in the dollar and without boring everyone senseless with a repeat of all clubs figures which have been posted ad nauseum, acquaint yourself with Wagin at 63.5 cents in the dollar, Busselton at 57.2 cents in the dollar or Northam at 53.4 or even Narrogin at 45.0 or Collie at 43.0. Facts, cold hard facts, not vague anecdotal gut feelings.

Go back in time and see what past rationalisation did to the Industry in Western Australia (not in Queensland or anywhere else, every jurisdiction has its own parameters). Look at the figures on horse populations, namings, foaling statistics, licensed personnel etc. It's all there, in black and white, there is a case study for all to read...and then hand on heart state that rationalisation via club and track elimination (do we need to list them all again?) didn't drive a dagger through the heart of the Industry from which it has never really recovered. And yet that is the proposition being floated to cure all our ills? Do it again? Ignore history? Okay, good luck there, won't bother me, Ill be long gone. But history tells us it won't work, it won't future proof the Industry (for those who remember the closure and sale of Richmond Raceway).

If I posted on here free ice creams on course for all, you would find cause to oppose, dispute denigrate or whatever...and that is your undeniable right, no question, it is a democracy, go for your life....but until you start backing your arguments with facts based on reading and researching actual data, your statements have little credibility in my opinion.

i threw up facts and figures before to you jayjay proving the industry in Queensland was was heading in the right direction, your only response was to try and get personal with me saying have a debate with me was akin to having a debate with an anti vaxxing conspiracy theorist , people are usually met with a similar response when they choose to disagree with any of your opinions. Do you and Warren choose to just hand pick the facts brought to your attention that suit your view and throw away the other relievent facts ?? Saying that people I've spoken to disagree with something or backing something up that I agree with is just pointing out what people I've engaged with in a discussion believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with using others views to back up your argument I'm sure you've done the same over the time you've tried to back up racing at the outdated 800 metre or smaller tracks that you feel are some how still needed for this industry in 2025

Frog · July 2025

From what I see QLD still running for less money than WA, I've noticed many races 6k.Not saying that WA will be the same as of 01/01/26. As the figures don't add up.

Markovina · July 2025

Frog said:
From what I see QLD still running for less money than WA, I've noticed many races 6k.Not saying that WA will be the same as of 01/01/26. As the figures d

You have to have a look at the state of the Balance Sheet re what each state is paying in prizemoney - i mean Vic had great prizemoney yet it has cost them 90 million of their 100 million Melton asset so its been a disaster - now they have a stack of 4k and 6k races , because to probably break even each year thats all they can sensibly afford

Luke McCarthy did say about 18 months ago that he thought the Qld industry was heading/running in the right direction and he thus would be having more runners their - and i think he was their again last night . To be perfectly fair , he started off as a youngster at AP , so he could be a touch bias as well to Qld

Until each state shows their Profit and Loss Statement , well Vic and NSW have , they were both big losses , but what is the situation with WA and Qld , are they making a profit or a loss - then you can judge whether their current stake money is sustainable

Imean WA have had a dream run , i can remember the minister for racing saying 15 years ago - Trotting is getting this distribution ( way above its turnover ) because its a main line sport and it employs all these people . Where as the Vic govt said 12 mths to the Vic Trots no more govt handouts - you have to stand on your own 2 feet , and the only way they have been able to do that is cut everything to the bone , most notably prizemoney . And trainers will leave Connor Crook a premiership winning driver in Tas went to Vic 3-4 years ago , now hes gone back to Tas because of the prizemoney cuts in Vic

G'day Punter!

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