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Harness & Greyhounds

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  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,807 posts
    Markovina said:

    Marko I missed that but did hear the first hour on my way to the footy.

    Mick is just an old sourpuss these days (probably always was to be honest) in the first hour I heard him talk about how when he got to the WCE he got them to change the lyrics to their song "So watch out all you know all's, all you wise men from the East" because he thought in his mind it was disrespectful to Victorians at the club!
    VK - re M  Malthouse i like when he talks footy 

    However Sat they were remebering/ paying tribute to George - 60 years to the day he joined the ABC 

    So after the other  2 said their  fond bit - they said to Mick- do you want to say anything about George

    And he actually said - oh look the 1st week i came to Perth ( got Eagles  job ) - his mother got killed didnt she - bitten by a snake -it was a Dugite wasnt it - then he said  -oh i said to my wife - we are going to have to be careful of snakes in Perth 

    I just thought it was crass how he said that 
    Yes very crass but not surprising, it was uncalled for.
    I usually only listen in the car driving to the footy somewhere but he doesnt endear himself to many with some of his comments.
    He was bagging out McGowan earlier in the season, he should have a look at the politicians in his own backyard before commenting on ours!

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  • getthechangegetthechange    150 posts

    I had no financial involvement but a very confident drive by Michael Cornwell on Sheez Our Hope at Pinjarra given that he has done very little driving of late.


    One for the battlers.



    quinella for he battlers and long time harness participants with the second horse trained by Lisa Walton - daughter of Anthony Iddon


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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,384 posts
    60 horses going around at the premier midweek meeting tonight, not good signs.

    VillageKid, curmudgeon likes this post.

  • maybesomaybeso    13 posts
    Northam Saturday night has 157 unique nominations for 10 races .... and was the club to have meetings taken off it this season.

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  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,807 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    60 horses going around at the premier midweek meeting tonight, not good signs.

    JJ has made many valid points regarding horse numbers leaving WA in droves to other states and the USA in the last 18 months or so and yet he seems to be scoffed at....but these continual poor field sizes at GP on Tuesdays and Pinjarra on Mondays cant be ignored for much longer surely?

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  • freodockersfreodockers    523 posts
    Get rid of Tuesday night meetings, call me old but it’s like watching the old Tuesday night trials at GP except there were 14 trials with full fields and more people.
    All of those horses racing tonight could have raced at Kellerberrin or Pinjarra with full fields and higher stakes.
    Quality not quantity.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,384 posts
    And the handicap system working a treat with an absolutely exhilarating meeting so far, it’s all action action action, punters should flock to head quarters to watch these thrilling tactical battles.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,776 posts
    I noticed former WA battler Tuakana won at Shepparton on Sunday in a $4.5 K race as odds on fav. It was an NR 30 to 45 race and he thus earned more after 3 E/S starts than his previous 12 since last winning in WA.... where the HWOE system seemingly subsequently stymied him.
    A 6y/o Bettors Delight he would have had years ahead of him knocking around WA under the NR handicapping system and filling fields without being impossible by moving up and down the ratings.....however we don't have the NR system here do we ? ...we have the system that produces "Prime" midweek meetings of 7 undersubscribed fields ...even the "Prime"  financial incentive disappeared recently. The handicapping system that is actually just a field selection system with nebulous barrier placement provisions sometimes ...continues to be clung to like an only child. 
    Tuakana is just 1 recent but prescient example of the exodus ( that isn't really happening...a figment of your imagination...notwithstanding the fields and results published nation and worldwide )...there are plenty of others.
    If turnover from 9 races at GP Tuesday and Monday at Pinjarra is a desired and critical factor going forward then we would better be catering for the races that can be filled at those meetings rather than making it a more positive option to move them on. There are plenty of takers for these horses over east....because they can still win the occasional race under the "national" rating system. 


     

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  • sonnysonny    715 posts
    Not many who make decisions admit they are wrong or made bad decisions...

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,384 posts
    sonny said:

    Not many who make decisions admit they are wrong or made bad decisions...

    Good leadership is admitting something isn’t working and then making changes to improve your outcome.


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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,776 posts
    Not to mention that if you want to encourage young people to take out a licence and get some experience ie grow the participatory base...then it is imperative that they have cost effective access to horses such as Tuakana in WA. In my 44 years of being licenced the last person I saw as an 18 year old who bought a $250 K 2 y/o to learn with while actually actively competing was...aahh....it has never happened.


  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,353 posts
    Well you can add to that Claimers - that creates a market in itself - every other state has got them except WA 

    I follow the form Aust wide - some of those claimers -  they might have gone sour - then a change of stable - scenery - routine - they might start swimming them - or walking them - and guess what - their performances improve - because they still have got ability 

    Claimers can get people involved - and alot of people - or some people - they get a horse they say to the trainer you break even with it - i will buy another one and so on and so  on - because they just love to be involved 

    Maybe the Trotting mob need to open the books and show all the salaries - look what  happened at the WAFL !!! ( not saying thats happened at the Trots ) 

    Maybe we need Big Ron to rock the boat a bit - hah 
  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,807 posts
    edited September 16
    Well you can add to that Claimers - that creates a market in itself - every other state has got them except WA 

    I follow the form Aust wide - some of those claimers -  they might have gone sour - then a change of stable - scenery - routine - they might start swimming them - or walking them - and guess what - their performances improve - because they still have got ability 

    Claimers can get people involved - and alot of people - or some people - they get a horse they say to the trainer you break even with it - i will buy another one and so on and so  on - because they just love to be involved 

    Maybe the Trotting mob need to open the books and show all the salaries - look what  happened at the WAFL !!! ( not saying thats happened at the Trots ) 

    Maybe we need Big Ron to rock the boat a bit - hah 





    I think you mean the governing body the WAFC Marko not the WAFL which is the State Football League Competition, there is a stark difference.
    But yes I take your point.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,384 posts
    edited September 16
    I was thinking last night be a bloody good night to be at GP to watch your horse go around, the only way I would do that ATM is if I was to go a claimer, would want to be in solo for a possible short term result if no good after a month or two ship him of to someone else, nothing really lost.

    Not to keen to go in for 5-10% and go on a Career long journey.

    Sure there would be plenty of others in the same boat

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  • JayJayJayJay    5,790 posts
    Breaking the "my last word" promise on this divisive issue......I suspect, that after nearly two years of the "conditioned" handicap system operating, that there is no resolution in sight as to the eventual outcome, other than NR being permanently spurned.
    Proponents of the scheme, with an almost commendable intransigence and an absolute unbreakable belief that "theirs" is the right way to go and that everyone else is either foolish, living in the past or doesn't understand what is going on.....and in spite of promised reviews and promised release of data surrounding key performance indicators set down at the beginning of the implementation being very scarce on the ground and in some cases non existent,  seem unwilling to entertain any other commentary on the issue. The implementation of NR over east has not been smooth sailing by any means but it seems it is being tweaked, adjusted or whatever, in response to feedback from industry participants.
    On the other hand, opponents of the scheme are equally adamant and equally intransigent that the system has engendered all manner of issues for the WA situation making a declining pre existing situation worse, that it depends on a large residential horse population as found in its origins from the USA, that it is "too conditional", that it fails to actually achieve its aim of "handicapping" being riddled with confusing (for the general public) jargon and that the general view of the majority of industry participants is very negative. Now life is all about perceptions and rightly or wrongly, after 22 months, many, many people perceive it it to be a failure. And they are voting with their feet. Statistics published last week show that 38 horses have moved from WA to the east in the 19/20 season, a drop from the 41 in 17/18 (I actually believe the number of 38 is higher than that at this point of time but was accurate at the time of data collection) but actual numbers are meaningless unless measured against horse population. Percentages would paint a much more valid picture. 38 coming off a lower base may well be a higher percentage than 41 coming off a higher base. At the same time, horses moving into WA have dropped off markedly, not to mention the export of horses, regardless of their origin, to North America. Again, perceptions are everything and it appears that lower grade horses are being retired and or moving east to a new life under NR, and higher grade horses are either moving east or moving to North America. So where are we at....there are splinter groups of interested parties forming all over the place, we have a new trainers group being formed, we have a new owners group being formed, we still have WASBA and a somewhat diminished and it seems marginalised BOTRA, and many others....it is hardly a united industry front....we have trainer and driver registrations falling, limited junior drivers, we have country tracks seemingly under constant threat of meeting reductions, we have had stakes cuts from Friday Night and Tuesday "prime" meetings to fund an extremely elusive "9th" race (and in may instances, even the 8th race is proving elusive), we have propositions to reduce field sizes from 12 to 10 and we have large numbers of races that are under subscribed that pay 1, 2 only that, from an owners point of view, are thankfully being run anyway. And we have have a metro venue that is so under-subscribed by on course patrons that  its viability has to be questioned. Gloucester Park has become just a mechanism for turnover for phone betting and online punters and has all the atmosphere of a dull funeral wake, not too mention an almost non existent industry profile in the media landscape.
    The recent Westbred funding increases are to be applauded, a definite positive and proactive response....and we have trainers and owners that regardless of the handicapping regime in operation are so passionate and depend on the industry as their livelihood to put food on their tables, that they will try and work with the system, with any system.
    But by any measure, all is not good in the city of Rome.......and I don't think that assessment is too harsh.

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  • getthechangegetthechange    150 posts

    Pin Monday and GPC Tuesdays are and have for a considerable time been impacted by the running of a 5th meeting at this time of the year. The following figures are the number of races and starters at the time the fields were released - first week where five consecutive meetings ( fri - sat - sun - mon - tues) were run in Sept/Oct for 2018 - 2019 and 2020

    2018 under MCR                                         2019 under HWOE                   2020 under HWOE

    5th Oct GPM   10 races  - 101 starters    20th Sept GPM  10 - 91        11th Sept GPM  10  - 102

     6th Oct  Bun     7   -           61                  21st Sept   Bun   8  - 74         12th Sept Bun   7   - 56

    7th Oct    Cen    9 -              90                22nd Sept    Cen   8   - 73      13th Sept Cen   9   -  78

    8th Oct     Pin      7                56              23rd Sept      Pin      6  - 44       14th Sept  8 Pin   - 71

    9th Oct     GPC     6              61              24th Sept      GPC     8 - 71        15th Sept  7 GPC - 59

    Total                  39              369                                                  40- 353                       41  - 366

    four meeting comparison

    2018                                     2019                                           2020 

    7th Sept GPM  10 - 93       6th Sept - GPM 10 - 96            4th Sept GPM 10 - 104

    8th Sept Bun     8 - 78        7th Sept - Bun   8  - 76            5th Sept Nar     9 - 79

    10th Sept Pin  8 - 73         9th Sept  - Pin    7 -  63             7th Sept Pin     8 - 85

    11th Sept GPC 8 - 80       10th Sept    GPC   7 - 72          8th Sept  GPC   8 - 70

                            34 - 324                                 32  - 307                                 35  - 338

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,353 posts
    Not being a smart aaarse Jay Jay 

    Everyone likes reading your posts - but put a few paragraphs in  please - space it out a bit please - so it is easy to read 

    At present it is like a Pro Hart painting - a blob
  • freodockersfreodockers    523 posts
    Doesn’t matter what handicapping system the trots have. The trots and the dogs are falling further and further behind every year.
    Bottom line is under the current system they are just a memory and no longer viable.
    If we were racing for 30.0k on a Friday night and 15.0k for a country race the floats coming from the east would be full and breeding would be worthwhile.
    Trots or dogs can’t compete with racing, it’s not a level playing field. Stakes are driven by turnover but we are now in a situation where we simply can’t catch up and fall further behind every year as the funding is reduced due to a lack of performance.
    It’s not a sound system (like introducing AFL to WAFL) and we all know what happened there.
    Don’t see any RWWA racing ambassadors for the trots which makes me laugh.
    Why is it always an attractive young girl and not a man?, bit out of line by today’s corporate standards.
  • getthechangegetthechange    150 posts
    Markovina said:

    Not being a smart aaarse Jay Jay 


    Everyone likes reading your posts - but put a few paragraphs in  please - space it out a bit please - so it is easy to read 

    At present it is like a Pro Hart painting - a blob
    not everyone - more comebacks than John Farnham
    :)

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,353 posts

    Markovina said:

    Not being a smart aaarse Jay Jay 


    Everyone likes reading your posts - but put a few paragraphs in  please - space it out a bit please - so it is easy to read 

    At present it is like a Pro Hart painting - a blob
    not everyone - more comebacks than John Farnham
    :)
    Personally - i dont think it is so much the handicapping system at fault - if you look at harness racing over east - they have got clear distinct geographical regions 

    Take NSW for example 

    Their is the Central West - Bathurst Dubbo Parkes . Their is the Riverina - Wagga Leeton Albury Junee Temora . Their is New England - Tamworth Newcastle etc 

    Now with each of those regions - theyd have 2 meetings in each of those regions per week - and 90% of those horses would never go anywhere near Menangle - because they are no where near  good enough - there are a hell of alot of ordinary horses in those regions - but they just race  amongst themselves week in week out 

    And for City class horses in NSW - you have the Menangle  meetings times 2 a week - and a meeting at  Penrith every Thurs night

    Now if you put that structure in WA - youd have 3 regions - Northam York Kellerberrin Kalgoorlie - and again 90% of those horses would not  go anywhere near GP . Plus youd have Albany Harvey Bunbury Wagin -again limited horses - 90% dont go anywhere near GP 

    Your city class horses would race at GP and Pinjarra 

    WA cant have that set up though - not enough population - not enough money - not enough horse population - not enough enthusiasts - but in an ideal world thats how it would be set up 

    You look at the gallops in WA however -they have regions - Kalgoorlie/Esperance - they have got the numbers to race their - i dont follow the gallops - but i doubt if many of those horses would come to Ascot in %  terms 

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,776 posts
    Every Jay Jay comment is met by you manning the parapets GTC ....with some swiss cheese argument containing a batch of figures someone somewhere considers relevant.
    I think he has earned his stripes over the years and is well qualified to speak generally whenever he feels so inclined.
    I would imagine the harness racing industry to be a lot better off if there were a few more mavericks prepared to put up the cash Jay Jay must have invested in the industry over a few decades and even more so recently.
    To have witnessed his marginalisation in terms of influence by the faceless proponents of the existing system is a disgrace. 
    I am appalled by your comment.

  • ciscocisco    731 posts
    Well said curmudgeon - could not have put it better myself!! Without owners like Jay Jay the game is cactus. 

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  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    54 posts
    Getthechange doesn’t seem to GET there won’t be a sport to worry about changing if they continue to run it into the pavement.

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  • getthechangegetthechange    150 posts

    Every Jay Jay comment is met by you manning the parapets GTC ....with some swiss cheese argument containing a batch of figures someone somewhere considers relevant.

    I think he has earned his stripes over the years and is well qualified to speak generally whenever he feels so inclined.
    I would imagine the harness racing industry to be a lot better off if there were a few more mavericks prepared to put up the cash Jay Jay must have invested in the industry over a few decades and even more so recently.
    To have witnessed his marginalisation in terms of influence by the faceless proponents of the existing system is a disgrace. 
    I am appalled by your comment.

    Every Jay Jay comment is met by you manning the parapets GTC ....with some swiss cheese argument containing a batch of figures someone somewhere considers relevant.

    I think he has earned his stripes over the years and is well qualified to speak generally whenever he feels so inclined.
    I would imagine the harness racing industry to be a lot better off if there were a few more mavericks prepared to put up the cash Jay Jay must have invested in the industry over a few decades and even more so recently.
    To have witnessed his marginalisation in terms of influence by the faceless proponents of the existing system is a disgrace. 
    I am appalled by your comment.

    </blockquote
    Good grief it was a tongue in cheek remark with no offense intended but apologies if that was how it was taken
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,776 posts
    Thanks for that clarification in terms of intent GTC.
    I do stand by the gist of what I posted in response however.
    There is a palpable undercurrent that considers the views espoused by many participants as the counterproductive ramblings of demented relatives - it seems because some of the argument doesn't fall in line with recently established dogma...and thus it should be ignored contemptuously.
    Sensible people are marginalised by being pigeon holed and thus their point of view is undermined by ongoing ridicule before appropriate consideration is given more often than not...it is outrageous.
    Let me ask these questions...What is point of a different and isolated handicapping system existing in WA in relation to the rest of the nation and what is the more likely outcome....other states will join the WA system or we will join the NR system ?
    Rome is burning while the fiddlers elbow is working overtime ...from any manner of indicators... not the least being exodus of horses.


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  • freodockersfreodockers    523 posts
    We are talking about two seperate issues here.
    1. The managing body that got the industry to the point it is today or when the handicapping system was changed.
    2. The handicapping system itself.
    If they listened to the participants (according to comments on this site) then they would revert to the national system.
    Only problem is trots would still be operating under a body that’s run out of ideas and in my opinion only really wants one racing code.
  • getthechangegetthechange    150 posts

    Thanks for that clarification in terms of intent GTC.

    I do stand by the gist of what I posted in response however.
    There is a palpable undercurrent that considers the views espoused by many participants as the counterproductive ramblings of demented relatives - it seems because some of the argument doesn't fall in line with recently established dogma...and thus it should be ignored contemptuously.
    Sensible people are marginalised by being pigeon holed and thus their point of view is undermined by ongoing ridicule before appropriate consideration is given more often than not...it is outrageous.
    Let me ask these questions...What is point of a different and isolated handicapping system existing in WA in relation to the rest of the nation and what is the more likely outcome....other states will join the WA system or we will join the NR system ?
    Rome is burning while the fiddlers elbow is working overtime ...from any manner of indicators... not the least being exodus of horses.

    At some stage two systems will probably become one system but in my opinion for that to happen changes would have to occur that bring them more into line with each other than they are currently.
    With considerable angst towards the NR from participants in the other states WA in my opinion should not consider joining the NR until the problems are fixed
    Please note that comments I make on PTT are my opinion and should not be seen as the opinion of RWWA 
    If I am manning the parapets it isn't on behalf of RWWA but because I believe in the system
    Jay Jay I didn't intend to offend you but if I did then I apologise

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  • YilgarnaYilgarna    21 posts
    Changing direction a bit, one of the real disappointments for me in recent times is the apparent lack of marketing for free entry on Friday nights at GP. I haven't seen anything, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but their website saying that it's still $12 for adults is not a good look. I think GP a missing a golden opportunity, particularly with no local Friday night footy to compete with. 

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,384 posts
    Yilgarna said:

    Changing direction a bit, one of the real disappointments for me in recent times is the apparent lack of marketing for free entry on Friday nights at GP. I haven't seen anything, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but their website saying that it's still $12 for adults is not a good look. I think GP a missing a golden opportunity, particularly with no local Friday night footy to compete with. 

    Had no idea it was free entry


  • freodockersfreodockers    523 posts
    GTC you are 100% entitled to your opinion no need to apologise.
    You like many on this site have earn”t your right to comment.
    After all that is what this site is about.
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