Comments worth a post but not a thread of their own

getthechange · August 2020

JayJay said:
The field and barrier draw based on PBD HWOE alone, without the last 2 wins clause (and allowing for the preferential barrier draw weighting of 1,2,3,4,10,11, 5,6,7,12, 8, 9 for a 12 horse field, this only has 10 acceptors), so I think it would be would be:
1. Anime ($47,794)
2. Sangue Reale ($62,666)
3. My Carbon Copy ($63,503)
4. While They Pray ($86,661)
5. Convert Denario ($96,220)
6. Bletchley Park ($100,796)
7. Roman Aviator (113,541)
8. Ideal Liner ($119,061)
9. Motu Premier ($185,218)
10.Theo Aviator ($93,297)

which pref draw would you use and would they work every time? - could they be used by trainers to place up and coming horses so that they draw well ?

as above or one of these

$L2 $L3 $L5

while they pray 3598 22798 35145

Convert 4885 9070 22834

Motu Premier 450 650 2324

Theo 1860 2360 14650

Ideal 1410 2110 3984

Roman 950 1950 15499

Carbon 4428 6520 36600

Sangue 12589 12890 106890

Bletchley Park 19297 21390 34018

Anime 760 4108 4811

Chariotsonfire · August 2020

NaturalLaw said:
Sterling drive by Kyle Harper on I’m Johnny Jet. Very smart.

Following some severe criticism on Twitter, Kyle responded indicating that he was driving to instructions from the trainer.

It makes you wonder what the trainer was thinking.

Gilgamesh · August 2020

I would like pref draw $L3 and split graded races pref draw HWOE. Also some RBD as well, have to give opportunities for those in form but if they were less frequent those in form would target them anyhow making them stronger races.

My issue with this whole system is I think they have missed a trick regarding the punter. There is very little intrigue around doing the form for the races now, too often there is an obvious horse in reasonable form drawn to run to the front, not a lot of will horse A try hold up, will horse B make a move. I sat down to look at the fields and do the form last night, would have given it less that 15 mins, might give it another 15 fri that’s it, you can wipe out 3/4 of the runners in that time. Some may think that is good for punters but if you do you are under estimating the punter, there are very few avenues to find an advantage under this scenario so it is pointless doing the work.

To me this is something that should be obvious with like for like racing with RBD. If horse A is drawn inside horse B and they are “like for like” then how can horse B beat horse A?? So driver on horse B sits back and hopes for someone else to do something silly and make the race for him, with very few part time drivers nowadays you get very few of these unexpected moves so as Marko points out you get 62 and change first halves which have often followed a high 37 at best lead and a run home in 57 and change which leaves a good 80% of runners no chance of winning but they had no option as they couldn’t be put into it and win anyhow.

For the risk of repeating myself for the umptienth time please use the one major handicapping tool you have to make more of the runners a chance in every race.

Markovina · August 2020

Gilgamesh said:
I would like pref draw $L3 and split graded races pref draw HWOE. Also some RBD as well, have to give opportunities for those in form but if they were less frequent those in form would target them anyhow making them stronger races.

My issue with this whole system is I think they have missed a trick regarding the punter. There is very little intrigue around doing the form for the races now, too often there is an obvious horse in reasonable form drawn to run to the front, not a lot of will horse A try hold up, will horse B make a move. I sat down to look at the fields and do the form last night, would have given it less that 15 mins, might give it another 15 fri that’s it, you can wipe out 3/4 of the runners in that time. Some may think that is good for punters but if you do you are under estimating the punter, there are very few avenues to find an advantage under this scenario so it is pointless doing the work.

To me this is something that should be obvious with like for like racing with RBD. If horse A is drawn inside horse B and they are “like for like” then how can horse B beat horse A?? So driver on horse B sits back and hopes for someone else to do something silly and make the race for him, with very few part time drivers nowadays you get very few of these unexpected moves so as Marko points out you get 62 and change first halves which have often followed a high 37 at best lead and a run home in 57 and change which leaves a good 80% of runners no chance of winning but they had no option as they couldn’t be put into it and win anyhow.

For the risk of repeating myself for the umptienth time please use the one major handicapping tool you have to make more of the runners a chance in every race.

Totally agree with you Gil - and thats why on TAB.COM - so many races at GP - there will be 5-6 runners per race at 150-1 - because they have no chance

One of the joys of punting on trots ( and thats why i bet over EAST ) is watching videos of prior runs after the markets have gone up - eg - you might see something - have a torrid run no luck at all in quick sectionals - and you think to yourself - with an easier run - this thing can win - and you can get 20-1 - i am having something on it

There was a race at Leeton - 2 weeks ago - an ex Craven horse - going 1.56 at Ballarat - 6 or 7 runs ago - draws gate 1 at Leeton over the sprint trip - led all the way - they opened it at $9 - it started $3.50 - that happens over East - you can study the form - watch replays and get overs - beautiful

Sadly that does not occur in WA harness - or very rarely- thats why i hardly bet on it

getthechange · August 2020

Gilgamesh said:
I would like pref draw $L3 and split graded races pref draw HWOE. Also some RBD as well, have to give opportunities for those in form but if they were less frequent those in form would target them anyhow making them stronger races.

My issue with this whole system is I think they have missed a trick regarding the punter. There is very little intrigue around doing the form for the races now, too often there is an obvious horse in reasonable form drawn to run to the front, not a lot of will horse A try hold up, will horse B make a move. I sat down to look at the fields and do the form last night, would have given it less that 15 mins, might give it another 15 fri that’s it, you can wipe out 3/4 of the runners in that time. Some may think that is good for punters but if you do you are under estimating the punter, there are very few avenues to find an advantage under this scenario so it is pointless doing the work.

To me this is something that should be obvious with like for like racing with RBD. If horse A is drawn inside horse B and they are “like for like” then how can horse B beat horse A?? So driver on horse B sits back and hopes for someone else to do something silly and make the race for him, with very few part time drivers nowadays you get very few of these unexpected moves so as Marko points out you get 62 and change first halves which have often followed a high 37 at best lead and a run home in 57 and change which leaves a good 80% of runners no chance of winning but they had no option as they couldn’t be put into it and win anyhow.

For the risk of repeating myself for the umptienth time please use the one major handicapping tool you have to make more of the runners a chance in every race.

I derived a living from being a WA Harness racing punter for 45 years and during that time I also trained and drove and now my wife races horses as an owner. I don't believe I under estimate punters but there also has to be a balance with the punters needs and the industry needs and I don't believe pref draws on $L3 is fair and reasonable as it affects every horse in the race many of which need a draw to be a chance. Whether taking a horse to Nor or Nar from the metro area or vice versa not being able to draw because of a few dollars seems harsh

race 7 at Nor next Saturday is an average lot with

Mister Riggers a winner of 1 from 72 and 1944 L3 starts drawn in bar 1

Royal O 1 from 13 478

COG 1 from 19 300

Gaz 1 from 22 300

Stormy 1 from 19 300

Oscar 1 from 18 4955

Junior 1 from 26 4683

Boo 1 from 10 2357

Harry 1 from 24 953

Should a winner of 1 from 73 not be able to draw barrier

Should Royal O with a 3rd and two 5ths and $176 more than three others over three runs not be able to draw bar 1

Should Oscar and Junior both long priced winners recently be banished to wide draws for three starts -

under pref draw of HWOE L2 if used regularly these two would be the only two that would draw wide and in all; probability after two starts they would be able to draw bar 1 - if Bondy or Reedy or Hally rocked up with a promising horse that won last start they would draw wide and continue to draw wide while the horse has a win in its last two starts. when it loses dominance and doesn't win for two starts it can also then draw a barrier

while the winners are effectively double handicapped by rising in class and having to start from a wide draw in most cases it will only be for two starts before they go back into the mix for a barrier draw

HWOE races are split on HWOE

L5$ LT races are split on their $ in L5 starts

On Friday there is a level 10 HWOE LT $55k race which had 17 noms with 16 between HWOE of $40k and $55k but only six had preference to that race which is an 8 horse field

Most had their preference to the level 10 L5$ Lt $20,000 race which was divided into three races

Gilgamesh · August 2020

But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

Markovina · August 2020

Race 5 tonight at Redcliffe is worth a watch

You would just love to see that happen at GP now and again

Thats how you hook new Trots fans - race excitement - forget all the other marketing nonsense

JayJay · August 2020

A fair dinkum chariot race, helped by the thing that over raced in the breeze but 7 wide up the straight and coming from last....great viewing. Good handicapping I would think.

NR 48 to 51. 3YO
and older. NDC. NMC. Restricted to horses that have not won a race with
a total stake more than $5,500 at Albion Park, Menangle or Melton at
their last 4 starts. If multiple divisions are required a $3,980 race
may be conducted for Balloted horses. PBD/NR/L6$.

DRIVER OF THE NIGHT ANGUS GARRARD PACE

7:23 PM

[Deleted User] · August 2020

The user and all related content has been deleted.

getthechange · August 2020

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1

race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658) 627 (336) 796 (584)

901(583) 1092(254) 1129(340) 5128 5178

Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1

the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1

If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest

I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance

group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M

HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win in a C1 race.

qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back

Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes

The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels

Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Gilgamesh · August 2020

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

getthechange · August 2020

Gilgamesh said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

come in marginally but not to bar 1 which we all know is likely to give a horse a far better chance than if it draws bar 2

At Nor Saturday races 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 would all have bar 1 allocated to horses on $300 L3 - race 6 is a stand

American Voodoo with $316 is deemed to have too good of form to be able to draw bar 1 for earning an extra $16 three starts ago

Race 4 Elect the starz is too good to draw bar 1 with $350 from a 5th last start - in all liklelihood cant draw bar 1 until that 5th is four start back - should have grabbed hold and ran 6th

Imana Capri with $350 due to a 5th two starts ago should have also grabbed hold and ran 6th

Real Love with $350 from a 5th last start will have to wait to be able to draw bar 1

Of course no one would grab hold in order to get bar 1 in a few weeks time would they

In my opinion the coveted Barrier 1 is too important to the average horse to not be able to draw it because of one 2nd or 3rd let alone a 4th or 5th in the last three starts.

why have grades and HWOE - brings field together in a different mix and the L5$ LT races provide the drop back component

aussiebattler · August 2020

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

come in marginally but not to bar 1 which we all know is likely to give a horse a far better chance than if it draws bar 2
At Nor Saturday races 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 would all have bar 1 allocated to horses on $300 L3 - race 6 is a stand
American Voodoo with $316 is deemed to have too good of form to be able to draw bar 1 for earning an extra $16 three starts ago
Race 4 Elect the starz is too good to draw bar 1 with $350 from a 5th last start - in all liklelihood cant draw bar 1 until that 5th is four start back - should have grabbed hold and ran 6th
Imana Capri with $350 due to a 5th two starts ago should have also grabbed hold and ran 6th
Real Love with $350 from a 5th last start will have to wait to be able to draw bar 1
Of course no one would grab hold in order to get bar 1 in a few weeks time would they
In my opinion the coveted Barrier 1 is too important to the average horse to not be able to draw it because of one 2nd or 3rd let alone a 4th or 5th in the last three starts.
why have grades and HWOE - brings field together in a different mix and the L5$ LT races provide the drop back component

CRS / HWOE ,seems like social media or this forum are the only place its reviewed and discussed publicly

GTC you are assessing the PBD on $L3 or $L5 concept to an exact dollar draw it ,would it not be better to be assessed in $ range and RBD each range so as to give horses a chance at a draw if they have a simular earning eg $0-1500 , $1500-$3000 and $3000 Plus keep it to 3 ranges variable to the horses in the pool of nominations ,not a new idea been done before and worked effectively in fact is simular to how they draw PBD HWOE now but is on current form not historical earnings,

Fields are selected on current form performance L5

Fields should be programmed on HWOE

Barrier draws should be handicapped on a mix of RBD and PBD $L3-5 (range earnings) and for wider HWOE bands a PBD HWOE/$L3-5 may be needed or Tighten the HWOE Bands

L5$ LT Level Racing still needs refining as I have detailed previously

Gilgamesh · August 2020

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

come in marginally but not to bar 1 which we all know is likely to give a horse a far better chance than if it draws bar 2
At Nor Saturday races 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 would all have bar 1 allocated to horses on $300 L3 - race 6 is a stand
American Voodoo with $316 is deemed to have too good of form to be able to draw bar 1 for earning an extra $16 three starts ago
Race 4 Elect the starz is too good to draw bar 1 with $350 from a 5th last start - in all liklelihood cant draw bar 1 until that 5th is four start back - should have grabbed hold and ran 6th
Imana Capri with $350 due to a 5th two starts ago should have also grabbed hold and ran 6th
Real Love with $350 from a 5th last start will have to wait to be able to draw bar 1
Of course no one would grab hold in order to get bar 1 in a few weeks time would they
In my opinion the coveted Barrier 1 is too important to the average horse to not be able to draw it because of one 2nd or 3rd let alone a 4th or 5th in the last three starts.
why have grades and HWOE - brings field together in a different mix and the L5$ LT races provide the drop back component

A bit like grabbing hold to make sure they don’t run a place so they are eligible for a weaker FFA race the next week....

Gilgamesh · August 2020

My last comment (probably not but I will say that anyhow).

You can’t use $L3 earned under this system to predict how a current field would be drawn, they might have drawn 1 and won a race in their last 3 starts if those fields were drawn under $L3.

Also you are pinning everything on giving horses the opportunity to draw 1 after nominating. What happens once the fields come out and they haven’t drawn 1? They nominate again and cross their fingers and hope they draw 1 again??

You need to get a system where the quality of the field is spread to such a degree that drawing that 1 isn’t the panacea which really while it is important it isn’t the be all and end all. If you are in better form than the horse drawn inside you they might be willing to hand up, they might want to hold you out, heaven forbid drivers might actually have to make some in race decisions, you might get some excitement!

If however the random draw pops a horse in better form than you inside you what are you going to do? Wait till next week and hope the marble gods are kind to you next week.

I really do appreciate the open discussion but I can’t help but feel we have been left with an over layered system that has failed to adequately handicap fields to their fullest.

The only thing at all that I can see this system has achieved is high earning age horses winning the equivalent C0

getthechange · August 2020

aussiebattler said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

come in marginally but not to bar 1 which we all know is likely to give a horse a far better chance than if it draws bar 2
At Nor Saturday races 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 would all have bar 1 allocated to horses on $300 L3 - race 6 is a stand
American Voodoo with $316 is deemed to have too good of form to be able to draw bar 1 for earning an extra $16 three starts ago
Race 4 Elect the starz is too good to draw bar 1 with $350 from a 5th last start - in all liklelihood cant draw bar 1 until that 5th is four start back - should have grabbed hold and ran 6th
Imana Capri with $350 due to a 5th two starts ago should have also grabbed hold and ran 6th
Real Love with $350 from a 5th last start will have to wait to be able to draw bar 1
Of course no one would grab hold in order to get bar 1 in a few weeks time would they
In my opinion the coveted Barrier 1 is too important to the average horse to not be able to draw it because of one 2nd or 3rd let alone a 4th or 5th in the last three starts.
why have grades and HWOE - brings field together in a different mix and the L5$ LT races provide the drop back component
CRS / HWOE ,seems like social media or this forum are the only place its reviewed and discussed publicly

GTC you are assessing the PBD on $L3 or $L5 concept to an exact dollar draw it ,would it not be better to be assessed in $ range and RBD each range so as to give horses a chance at a draw if they have a simular earning eg $0-1500 , $1500-$3000 and $3000 Plus keep it to 3 ranges variable to the horses in the pool of nominations ,not a new idea been done before and worked effectively in fact is simular to how they draw PBD HWOE now but is on current form not historical earnings,
Fields are selected on current form performance L5
Fields should be programmed on HWOE
Barrier draws should be handicapped on a mix of RBD and PBD $L3-5 (range earnings) and for wider HWOE bands a PBD HWOE/$L3-5 may be needed or Tighten the HWOE Bands
L5$ LT Level Racing still needs refining as I have detailed previously

I don't agree with what Gil was suggesting but $L3 in groups of $1500 for non metro stake racing,, $1000 for $4500 races and $4,000 for metro stake racing I wouldn't have a problem with

getthechange · August 2020

Gilgamesh said:
My last comment (probably not but I will say that anyhow).

You can’t use $L3 earned under this system to predict how a current field would be drawn, they might have drawn 1 and won a race in their last 3 starts if those fields were drawn under $L3.

Also you are pinning everything on giving horses the opportunity to draw 1 after nominating. What happens once the fields come out and they haven’t drawn 1? They nominate again and cross their fingers and hope they draw 1 again??

You need to get a system where the quality of the field is spread to such a degree that drawing that 1 isn’t the panacea which really while it is important it isn’t the be all and end all. If you are in better form than the horse drawn inside you they might be willing to hand up, they might want to hold you out, heaven forbid drivers might actually have to make some in race decisions, you might get some excitement!

If however the random draw pops a horse in better form than you inside you what are you going to do? Wait till next week and hope the marble gods are kind to you next week.

I really do appreciate the open discussion but I can’t help but feel we have been left with an over layered system that has failed to adequately handicap fields to their fullest.

The only thing at all that I can see this system has achieved is high earning age horses winning the equivalent C0

agree that bar 1 isn't the be all and end all but if there was a field of cloned horses all trained and driven by top drivers then the horse in bar 1 would be fav

aussiebattler said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:

getthechange said:

Gilgamesh said:
But under dollars earned last 3 you are guaranteed to get a draw if you need one to be competitive, under random draws you might go 100 races and draw outside 5 in all of them!

If you program a race for HWOE$6K $L3 and a split grade HWOE$6K-$15K Pref HWOE then they have options if they have been earning to still draw well.

Also why do we have grades for horses as well as HWOE?

you are guaranteed to draw inside those that have more $L3 but in doing so low earners cant draw the barrier they most need in bar 1
race 2 at Northam the $L3 are 462 (form 589) 462 ( 658)   627 (336)       796 (584)
901(583)    1092(254)      1129(340)                           5128        5178
Under $L3 one of the $462 gets bar 1 and the other gets bar 2 an they are the only two that can get bar 1
the form of the next five horses is hardly startling and they are a long way short of paying their monthly costs and yet their chance to win a race is made more difficult because they cant draw bar 1 under $L3 -- surely all of the seven low earners should be able to draw bar 1
If the race was pref draw HWOE L2 those seven would go into a draw for barriers and the 5128 and 5178 would draw widest
I don't like pref draw on HWOE because the more horses you have in your stable the more likely you are to have a horse close to the HWOE level plus before acceptances the bar 1 is already decided which is hardly an incentive to start horses that need bar 1 to be a chance
group pref draws on HWOE work the same as pref draw on C or M
HWOE is an adaption of the MCR and the previous Assessment system which started as the basis of MCR but got lost in translation -under the Assessment system their were no drop backs and their were no open age metro winners from 2:28(C0 equiv) to 2:22(C6 equiv) - Under MCR Full Package a winner of 23 races and $176k including an M0 recorded its last win  in a C1 race.
qualifying stakes winners(M0 equiv) became 2:21 ( M1 equiv) and fast class was around 2:14 (M8 equiv) - horses won their races and didn't drop back
Drop backs were introduced into MCR allowing horses that reached fast class like lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas and many others that got to M2 or M3 then dropped back on top of horses trying to come through the classes
The L5$ LT races allow horses to drop back but not in the HWOE races in order to allow horses to progress up the protected HWOE levels
Trainers may opt to race their horse in the races without drop back horses(HWOE races) or start in the drop back L5$ Lt races against horses dropping back if they wish. These drop back races are intended to keep horses in the system without them impeding the progress of horses in the HWOE races

Yes but then if they don’t earn Sat they are likely to come in the next start.

Can you answer why we have grades eg eligible grade 10 horses. Why do we need grades and HWOE?

Thanks for your info but so far you have done nothing to sway me from thinking this system does nothing to give a handicap across a full field giving more runners a chance exciting more connections/punters across each race, intact you seem to be backing up my thoughts that it very much limits those who are in contention to less than a handful in each race and it’s write your own ticket the rest.

come in marginally but not to bar 1 which we all know is likely to give a horse a far better chance than if it draws bar 2
At Nor Saturday races 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 would all have bar 1 allocated to horses on $300 L3 - race 6 is a stand
American Voodoo with $316 is deemed to have too good of form to be able to draw bar 1 for earning an extra $16 three starts ago
Race 4 Elect the starz is too good to draw bar 1 with $350 from a 5th last start - in all liklelihood cant draw bar 1 until that 5th is four start back - should have grabbed hold and ran 6th
Imana Capri with $350 due to a 5th two starts ago should have also grabbed hold and ran 6th
Real Love with $350 from a 5th last start will have to wait to be able to draw bar 1
Of course no one would grab hold in order to get bar 1 in a few weeks time would they
In my opinion the coveted Barrier 1 is too important to the average horse to not be able to draw it because of one 2nd or 3rd let alone a 4th or 5th in the last three starts.
why have grades and HWOE - brings field together in a different mix and the L5$ LT races provide the drop back component
CRS / HWOE ,seems like social media or this forum are the only place its reviewed and discussed publicly

GTC you are assessing the PBD on $L3 or $L5 concept to an exact dollar draw it ,would it not be better to be assessed in $ range and RBD each range so as to give horses a chance at a draw if they have a simular earning eg $0-1500 , $1500-$3000 and $3000 Plus keep it to 3 ranges variable to the horses in the pool of nominations ,not a new idea been done before and worked effectively in fact is simular to how they draw PBD HWOE now but is on current form not historical earnings,
Fields are selected on current form performance L5
Fields should be programmed on HWOE
Barrier draws should be handicapped on a mix of RBD and PBD $L3-5 (range earnings) and for wider HWOE bands a PBD HWOE/$L3-5 may be needed or Tighten the HWOE Bands
L5$ LT Level Racing still needs refining as I have detailed previously

not an issue at the moment but I think field selection points are questionable - 10 points for winning - 8 for 2nd - 7 for 3rd etc in non metro stake races and 14 points for 1st - 12 for 2nd etc in metro stake races seems a very basic system - 10 points for a maiden and 10 point for a no metro stake level 9 race - 14 points for level 9 metro stake win and 14 points for pacing cup - win in level 9 non metro equals 4th in metro level 9

Fields should be programmed on HWOE - in what way?

aussiebattler · August 2020

Field selection points don’t need to be over complicated metro is handicapper or field selection panel selected anyway so the field selection points only factor in country races therefore they don’t need to be higher in metro as that causes a bias to metro horses gaining a start in the country over horses with consistent country form .

Should have read Races Should be programmed on HWOE but I will expand on that

Races are programmed now grouping horses in HWOE bands ,Age or L5$ LT quite often the PBD/HWOE seems to be ineffective at handicapping horses in form over horses not in form therefore a better system of PBD should be used instead of using historical earnings hence HWOE alone should not be used as a handicapping tool

Markovina · August 2020

Im not into the different handicapping systems

But Ark is an interesting example

Ex WA horse had over 40 starts in WA for 3 different trainers and didnt record a single win

Friday night - 1st up at Newcastle in a NR Up to 47 RBD ( whatever that means) starts 6/4 fave and leads all the way in a 6.6k race

PackedMetalPanda · August 2020

Daniel Suvaljko drove his first winner last night at Northam for his mother Sarah aboard Isaidboo.

Great to see and congratulations to Daniel, all the best to him in the future along with brother Joseph who has also recently started driving.

I’m going to have Daniel on my show Tuesday ; OneOutOneBack 9-10am on TABradio

Tune in :)

JayJay · August 2020

Markovina said:
Im not into the different handicapping systems

But Ark is an interesting example

Ex WA horse had over 40 starts in WA for 3 different trainers and didnt record a single win

Friday night - 1st up at Newcastle in a NR Up to 47 RBD ( whatever that means) starts 6/4 fave and leads all the way in a 6.6k race

Ark, Rousey, Arthur Lowe, Robert The Bruce, Tuakana, Salome Miss, Gangbuster, Attack On Command, Glens Of Tekoa, Rum Delight, Illusionation, Absolution, Smackwater Jack, Lady Azalea, Prince Of Whitby, Another Ajay, Frosty Flyer, Perfect Mach, Four Starzzz Forsa, Semiramade, Georgie Mae, Scottlyn Beach, Almightyjoelouis, Dracarys, Zennart, Tajie Baby, Dracarys, Mighty Flying Deal, Burning Shadows..........

North America....Amelias Courage, Anna Afreet, Ana Malak, Bechers Brook, Beltane, Better Scoot, Crystal Sparkles, Fizzing, Ideal One, Infinite Symbol, Maczaffair, Major Pocket, Our Corelli, Bill Haley, Soho Burning Love, Speed Man, American Boy, American Bootscoota, Herrick roosevelt, Its Rocknroll, One Off Delight, Waimac Attack, Walkenshaw, Better B Chevron, Bettors Fire, Bright Diamond, Campora, Ideal Tyson, Johnny Disco, Luis ALberto, Lets Chase The Dream, Mitch McGuire, Rock Diamonds, Saying Grace, Foxy Dame, Military Master, Runoneover, Soho Wall Street, Mighty Santanna........

getthechange · August 2020

Markovina said:
Im not into the different handicapping systems

But Ark is an interesting example

Ex WA horse had over 40 starts in WA for 3 different trainers and didnt record a single win

Friday night - 1st up at Newcastle in a NR Up to 47 RBD ( whatever that means) starts 6/4 fave and leads all the way in a 6.6k race

interesting example highlighting the different philosophies

In WA the lesser horses are protected from higher level horses which can only drop back in the specific L5$ LT races. Ark could get back to a L5$ LT $4,000 via those races.The lesser horses may choose to meet Ark in those races or stay in the races where Ark can`t drop back into.

the race in question

Ark 11 wins 70k stake money HWOE 34,000(level 8) NR44

Franko 4 35k 14,000(level 6) 37

tiz 2 12k 6,500(level 4) 41

American 2 13,700 3900(level 3) 41

kiwi 5 40k 13,580(level 6) 46

mista 14 114k 29,460 (level 8) 45

The Spin 1 11.9k 3990(level 3) 46

Joan 3 16k 9060(level 5) 45

Love 1 10.2 710 (level 2) 43

Bella 1 10.5 2130 (level 2) 44

NR and HWOE may/may not include results from this race

aussiebattler · August 2020

JayJay said:

Markovina said:
Im not into the different handicapping systems

But Ark is an interesting example

Ex WA horse had over 40 starts in WA for 3 different trainers and didnt record a single win

Friday night - 1st up at Newcastle in a NR Up to 47 RBD ( whatever that means) starts 6/4 fave and leads all the way in a 6.6k race

Ark, Rousey, Arthur Lowe, Robert The Bruce, Tuakana, Salome Miss, Gangbuster, Attack On Command, Glens Of Tekoa, Rum Delight, Illusionation, Absolution, Smackwater Jack, Lady Azalea, Prince Of Whitby, Another Ajay, Frosty Flyer, Perfect Mach, Four Starzzz Forsa, Semiramade, Georgie Mae, Scottlyn Beach, Almightyjoelouis, Dracarys, Zennart, Tajie Baby, Dracarys, Mighty Flying Deal, Burning Shadows..........

North America....Amelias Courage, Anna Afreet, Ana Malak, Bechers Brook, Beltane, Better Scoot, Crystal Sparkles, Fizzing, Ideal One, Infinite Symbol, Maczaffair, Major Pocket, Our Corelli, Bill Haley, Soho Burning Love, Speed Man, American Boy, American Bootscoota, Herrick roosevelt, Its Rocknroll, One Off Delight, Waimac Attack, Walkenshaw, Better B Chevron, Bettors Fire, Bright Diamond, Campora, Ideal Tyson, Johnny Disco, Luis ALberto, Lets Chase The Dream, Mitch McGuire, Rock Diamonds, Saying Grace, Foxy Dame, Military Master, Runoneover, Soho Wall Street, Mighty Santanna........

Can you list imported into WA horses alongside your exported from WA list ?

JayJay · August 2020

Well, I probably could...... if I had a spare couple of hours but I suspect most are imported. And I also suspect that without imports, our breeding stats have fallen to such levels that they can't sustain a viable horse population. I foresee a possible scenario in 20 years (yes, a bit tongue in cheek....I'm feeling frivolous), when I am fortunately long gone, of a thriving housing development and weekend market at the former GP site, along with the obligatory plaque marking what was once a top 4 sport in WA....(Is it a sustainable venue with less than 20 patrons on course on a Tuesday mid week other than hands on industry participants (and not a whole lot more on a Friday night)???......and harness fans will get their fix at a weekly Sunday Arvo picnic meeting at Pinjarra with 3 five horse races running for a sash and a tray of scones donated by those very stout but ageing defenders of the successful new model. The very admirable defense mounted by the advocates of this complicated, multi layered, clause and condition riddled labrynth has been so tight, so impenetrable and so disciplined that had Hitler adopted the template, Berlin would never have fallen. I am aware that some opponents of the change have been lovingly labelled by some as "Ministers Of the Past", fair enough, I've been called worse but I formally surrender, I am over bashing my head against a brick wall, chalk up a victory, I am out of gas. Like Gil, "my last comment" and it probably won't be, but I'll just pop outside and watch some grass grow on a rare sunny day.

Markovina · August 2020

Jay Jay - that description of where WA Trotting is heading - re the picnic meetings at Pinj on a Sunday afternoon

That sounds like Kings Island in Tassie - they have a couple times a year - a 2 race card - full fields tho( thats got your Pinjarra situation covered) - got to doff your caps to them - because they are out in an island in Bass Strait

aussiebattler · August 2020

JayJay said:
Well, I probably could...... if I had a spare couple of hours but I suspect most are imported. And I also suspect that without imports, our breeding stats have fallen to such levels that they can't sustain a viable horse population. I foresee a possible scenario in 20 years (yes, a bit tongue in cheek....I'm feeling frivolous), when I am fortunately long gone, of a thriving housing development and weekend market at the former GP site, along with the obligatory plaque marking what was once a top 4 sport in WA....(Is it a sustainable venue with less than 20 patrons on course on a Tuesday mid week other than hands on industry participants (and not a whole lot more on a Friday night)???......and harness fans will get their fix at a weekly Sunday Arvo picnic meeting at Pinjarra with 3 five horse races running for a sash and a tray of scones donated by those very stout but ageing defenders of the successful new model. The very admirable defense mounted by the advocates of this complicated, multi layered, clause and condition riddled labrynth has been so tight, so impenetrable and so disciplined that had Hitler adopted the template, Berlin would never have fallen. I am aware that some opponents of the change have been lovingly labelled by some as "Ministers Of the Past", fair enough, I've been called worse but I formally surrender, I am over bashing my head against a brick wall, chalk up a victory, I am out of gas. Like Gil, "my last comment" and it probably won't be, but I'll just pop outside and watch some grass grow on a rare sunny day.

No worries ,I was just wondering what sort of numbers had been imported in the time period of those 70 odd horses being exported .

2lifetimewinners · August 2020

Would like to get peoples thoughts on the last 200m of the race of Race 6 at Northam Saturday Nigh. Watched the replay. Not a great look.

2lifetimewinners · August 2020

Sorry it didnt screen shot

Inquiry into the driving of Manofthepeople

Markovina · August 2020

2lifetimewinners said:
Would like to get peoples thoughts on the last 200m of the race of Race 6 at Northam Saturday Nigh. Watched the replay. Not a great look.

Yeah i just watched a replay - perfect drive to the top of the straight- eased off the pegs - got into the running line - there was a clear gap to come wider in the straight without interfering with other horses running you would have thought

I think i will leave that to the stewards - it was well in the market $4 - so youd expect it to run on

All i can think of - is maybe there was a gear problem - broken gear which worried him - or maybe he just mistook the laps - thought there was another lap to go

Gilgamesh · August 2020

Yeah wow. I was on the leader and busy thinking how the wheels have fallen of that horse but that drive was interesting to say the least.

G'day Punter!

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