New Handicapping System for the Trots

westerncat · March 2021

People complaining about the handicapping system won't be happy regardless of how it is!! The way it is now, is significantly better to keep higher class horses from leaving for the states, way more opportunities to drop back etc... The uptick in sales to the USA is driven by higher prices being paid, not due to less racing opportunities.

Anyone carrying on about horses leaving the state, are peddling a false narrative to suit their agenda! It is irrelevant how many leave, because the people selling them, in general buy others to replace them... I sell lots to the USA, to make way for new ones we purchase, if I don't move one on, I'm not getting a new one..... and that's the case with 95% of the people selling, they move one on to make room for a new one.... There needs to be avenues to sell horses, or you won't get people investing.

freodockers · March 2021

Agree 100% WC.
But can you explain the reduction in horse numbers, owners, trainers etc.
My opinion only but it was happening way before the new handicapping system.
So what has caused it.
I have my opinion would like to hear others.
Particularly those who buy & move on.

curmudgeon · March 2021

People complaining about the handicapping system won't be happy regardless of how it is!!

Anyone carrying on about horses leaving the state, are peddling a false narrative to suit their agenda!

Please explain ?? Talk about peddling false narratives ..... couching your opinion here in those terms seems to me to be exactly what you are accusing others of .......pushing your own agenda.

JayJay · March 2021

"The way it is now, is significantly better to keep higher class horses
from leaving for the states, way more opportunities to drop back etc...
The uptick in sales to the USA is driven by higher prices being paid,
not due to less racing opportunities."

Just 6 acceptors for the FFA on Friday night, only 4 of them level 15...clearly, HWOE is NOT succeeding in keeping higher class horses from leaving for the states. The Americans have been paying high prices for horses since Adaptor, Cocky Raider and Cardigan Bay, it is hardly a recently emerging trend, so the logic behind that statement seems at odds with reality. And at the lower end, with another truck load locked and loaded, I can't recall so many ex patriot WA horses racing in both NSW and SA .

westerncat · March 2021

Only 6 noms for the FFA due to programming feature races incorrectly! Pinj Cup - Bunbury Cup - 4/5 yo championship ... Country cups etc etc ... The system lets the higher HWOE horses drop back and earn, a M15 can drop back after 5 starts, old system it would have taken 100 starts

And talking about cardigan bay and a couple other anomaly's, in regard to the USA market is ridiculous, you don't know anything about the USA market if its your understanding that the prices and demand didn't skyrocket between 2018 to now.... Ive sold 50+ horses to the states, I'm very confident that my first hand knowledge of this, is better than your agenda driven assumption

westerncat · March 2021

2008-2013 a FFA type from Perth was 25-40k purchase price to the USA...

last 2 years they've been sold out of Perth for 6 figures at times.... There was no huge demand from the USA for around 10 years.

The increase in horse talent to Perth obviously helps the prices, but just check up with IRT or HRA, they'll show you the increase Australia wide, check it year by year, and you notice its stagnant between 2005-2013, then starts picking up.... % of horses leaving from NSW, VIC, and QLD would have risen more than Perth too.... so guess they're leaving those states because of the handicapping system too??

When someone sells a horse to make room for a new horse, that's not a net loss on horses. irrelevant to where the horse goes

If someone can sell their mid level horse, that's done a good job for them at 50k and avoid racing 6 of bonds in a race, or multiple 100-300k fresh NZ imports from other local stables, and purchase a young horse or a lower assessed horse, whats the problem with that?

Markovina · March 2021

Rocket_Reign said:

Markovina said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

JayJay said:
56
I wonder what the magical figure is before they change?

Surely the buying will slow down soon, Jurd is the main buyer and he’d be losing money hand over fist
How would he be losing money - most of them he bought would have been as cheap as chips - 10k max id reckon - and all of them have paid their way - Rousey which he sent to QLD - won 7 in a row up their

The only one hed be underwater with at present - is your horse Bolta - might have had to go to 15k with that one - and it hasnt won yet - only run a couple of 2nds - but if the horse is still sound - it will probably end up in Qld as well

Him and his partner - are obviously doing it for a hobby - however i dont think there would be much red ink on the ledger at this point in time

Most of them I know exactly what he’s paying, plus it’s approx 2k transport most are still at a loss and the debt is only growing if you take into consideration what training fees would be.

If as you say - you know what most of them sold for - then what was Dibaba sales price

Wednesday night at Bathurst - demolished another field and in slick time - and made it 5 from in NSW and 25k in stakemoney

Id laugh if that horse won 10 in a row in NSW - there is some possibility of it doing that

Rocket_Reign · March 2021

Markovina said:

Rocket_Reign said:

Markovina said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

JayJay said:
56
I wonder what the magical figure is before they change?

Surely the buying will slow down soon, Jurd is the main buyer and he’d be losing money hand over fist
How would he be losing money - most of them he bought would have been as cheap as chips - 10k max id reckon - and all of them have paid their way - Rousey which he sent to QLD - won 7 in a row up their

The only one hed be underwater with at present - is your horse Bolta - might have had to go to 15k with that one - and it hasnt won yet - only run a couple of 2nds - but if the horse is still sound - it will probably end up in Qld as well

Him and his partner - are obviously doing it for a hobby - however i dont think there would be much red ink on the ledger at this point in time

Most of them I know exactly what he’s paying, plus it’s approx 2k transport most are still at a loss and the debt is only growing if you take into consideration what training fees would be.
If as you say - you know what most of them sold for - then what was Dibaba sales price

Wednesday night at Bathurst - demolished another field and in slick time - and made it 5 from in NSW and 25k in stakemoney

Id laugh if that horse won 10 in a row in NSW - there is some possibility of it doing that

Jurd doesn’t have Dibaba my point was he’s buying majority and he’s losing money.
Dibaba is flying and is one of the few that actually improved out of site over there

AbbysAce · March 2021

What has Nightwatch Star won?

Nitro Lad

Rousey

Minimum Wage

Rum Delight

I reckon L Jurd just wont buy off certain WA trainers where hes got his fingers burnt.

savethegame · March 2021

Rule number 1 when buying horses you need to know more about previous trainer then the horse whose his vet etc.etc. In the codes doesn't take long to find out.

JayJay · March 2021

Nightwatch Star has won 5 races, 5 placings in the East, $19,496 since November 9th.

Tonight's ex patriot WA runners Nitro Lad 2nd, Our Big Slow 4th, Lucinda Jamar 5th, Happy As 2nd and Faiselle 7th.

Latest to leave WA are Master Caribbean, Rocknroll Rhylee, Kamendable Joe and Kamendable Feeling.

Chariotsonfire · March 2021

To be fair those four horses have very little future in WA whatever the handicapping system is.

JayJay · March 2021

With NR's under 50.....Rocknroll Rhylee 38, Master Carribbean (a fair horse) 49, Kamendable Joe 44 and Kamendable Feeling 46, they will have their chance to earn

cisco · March 2021

You can add Jack William to that list.

AbbysAce · March 2021

And the field sizes tonight at GP ,

1 x 5 horse field

2 x 6

3 x 7

if they keep leaving there only going to get smaller.

One point that always been made about turnover is we must have 8 horse fields with a 3rd place dividend.

jum · March 2021

PTT made WA Harness trader on Facebook last night.

Very heavily commented topic raised by Barry Hamilton. Some interesting comments on there and the page was closed down i believe as i can no longer read any of the comments.

TOPIC: youngsters in the game. Tell me what is wrong with our industry

X_X

JayJay · March 2021

Probably not the right site, it is a buy and sell page. There was a lot of response and commentary, a lot of passion which inevitably morphed into a discussion mainly of the handicapping system v NR, along with some good ideas to provide pathways for young participants.......and a push by the originator of the topic to totally exclude and disenfranchise the views of older industry participants, presumably because they don't agree with what happened over two years ago. The arsonist sacking the firefighters?? Maybe, maybe not.

Comment of the night: "I hope we never get NR, I don't understand it but it is much worse than what we have now".

savethegame · March 2021

Old Dogs For A Hard Road ----Puppies To The Footpath.

aussiebattler · March 2021

JayJay said:
Probably not the right site, it is a buy and sell page. There was a lot of response and commentary, a lot of passion which inevitably morphed into a discussion mainly of the handicapping system v NR, along with some good ideas to provide pathways for young participants.......and a push by the originator of the topic to totally exclude and disenfranchise the views of older industry participants, presumably because they don't agree with what happened over two years ago. The arsonist sacking the firefighters?? Maybe, maybe not.
Comment of the night: "I hope we never get NR, I don't understand it but it is much worse than what we have now".

We got Barry'd again ,started something then left the building leaving the industry with no choice and no answers, oh well moving on

getthechange · March 2021

Didnt see the post but Jay Jay says it started as something else and morphed into handicapping.

I spoke to Barry a few weeks ago at GP and got the impression that there are possibly some areas that he is unable to comment on

aussiebattler · March 2021

getthechange said:
Didnt see the post but Jay Jay says it started as something else and morphed into handicapping.

I spoke to Barry a few weeks ago at GP and got the impression that there are possibly some areas that he is unable to comment on

From the way it read Barry was taking responsibility for the introduction of the HWOE which has now morphed into something slightly different which he knew he would cop some flak , then he deflected it into asking the youth of the industry to step up and get involved (no direction given as to where or what exactly or how ) I think he meant Botra,wasba etc which he said consisted mainly of old farts like him ,he made a list of the fine young people whom he thought should step up and others were added as conversation went on (I was privileged enough to be considered young enough to be on the list lol and not put in the old fart category )

not sure why he deleted the thread ,but it was never going to get any results for the industry seemed like a pointless discussion possibly why it ended ,like Jay Jay said the conversation changed to the dissatisfaction of the HWOE ,some positive comments were in there but now it’s deleted the people have to re submit those ideas, hopefully to somewhere more effective than social media

Ivorytrunkey86 · March 2021

My guess is he deleted it because the last comment I read was aimed at the things he implemented while at rwwa and the fact whilst he worked there he didn’t listen to anyone nor care for the opinions of the “whinging” fraternity. I’ve said it on here before but witnessing first hand the arrogance portrayed whilst shutting down Kalgoorlie I fined it amusing he now jumps on rwwa at every opportunity.

capgun · March 2021

In my experience barry did a lot of good whilst at RWWA despite my utter dissatisfaction with handicapping system. Unlike the current staff barry had a passion for harness racing and tried very hard to improve harness racing’s position. What must be noted is that barry put himself on the line to improve the game; unlike the majority of us keyboard warriors (me included)..... yep he got it wrong and he admits his mistakes, but here he is asking for an open discussion about the industry he loves.

Betonme · March 2021

I was kind of disappointed he deleted the post, as it did open things up a bit when I last looked.

KTQ · March 2021

It was basically people whinging about handicapping and wanting C/M brought back.

capgun · March 2021

Talking about how something does or doesn’t work isn’t always whinging.

westerncat · March 2021

The ridiculous part is, the current system is basically the same as C and M with different terminology, and added spots at the M level between M0 to FFA.

Plus the drop back classes NW4k 8K 12K 20K 25K L5

Changing back to the C and M does nothing, except changes the way they have to grade 2 and 3yo's, with free wins vs lower HWOE.... Same same

maybeso · March 2021

westerncat said:
The ridiculous part is, the current system is basically the same as C and M with different terminology, and added spots at the M level between M0 to FFA.
Plus the drop back classes NW4k 8K 12K 20K 25K L5

Changing back to the C and M does nothing, except changes the way they have to grade 2 and 3yo's, with free wins vs lower HWOE.... Same same

What a crock of old, brown, smelly stuff.

In the MCR system a win at R class did not affect a horse's C or M rating. In the HWOE system a win is a win, and the rating goes up across the board. A horse in the MCR system never copped a metro penalty unless winning a metro staked race. Currently there are a number of horses that cannot compete at the lowest metro level because they have gone over the HWOE mark of $40,000 without ever winning a metro staked race.

Further there is no differentiation, other than prize money on offer, between community and country race meetings. Both have basically the same meeting structure of races. In the MCR system they would be racing for R or C penalties depending of the race classification. That is not the case in the current system.

Also, horses went up or down a class depending on results in the MCR system. In the HWOE system everything is one way, up. Once a horse records a win it never loses that mark.

Then there are the idiosyncrasies. In the MCR system a dead heat for first was not counted as a win. In the HWOE system triple dead heat for first in a $4.5k race, cop a HWOE hit of $850, and lose your maiden status.

In the MCR system 2yo wins were penalty free, rightly or wrongly. Win as a 2yo in the HWOE system and cop a lifetime penalty.

The HWOE system is not basically the same as the MCR system. It is an entirely different beast. For that matter, the NR system is also an entirely different beast to the other two as well.

westerncat · March 2021

It amazes me how peoples recollection is softened with time!

First of all, every 2yo/3yo win was counted as an R, so most horses weren't R0's at 4.

there was one R class race at a couple of the country meetings, and they were always R0-R1 ONLY

the far country tracks would have an R0+ stand, and R0-R1. maybe and R2-R3 and the rest would be $3000 C Class penalty events.... So coming up with this mythical R system that let horses race thru to an R10 or something of that nature without winning a C class race, is misleading

As for C class races, you may recall the C5-9 would barely fill, and the C10+ would basically never get enough noms.

NW40k basically gets you up to a C10. And you could race higher in the country still of you like, with the 25K + stands

Everyone was crying about no where to race horses under FFA prior to the new system coming in, and that everything was leaving for the USA, that problem was addresses, and there is much more opportunity to extend a horses career here, yet horses will still get sold because numerous factors.

People always pick a horse out and analyse it in a vacuum..... they seem to only look what their horse would fit under a different system, not that other peoples would too...

look through the city races, you'll find lots of horses that would be a M7 or more, that could never compete against FFA types, yet they keep earning money and have the opportunity to win.

I really don't care if they change it back to MCR, changes very little, providing they keep the drop back classes Nw4k 8k 12k 20k 25k L5.

it wasn't changed because everyone was happy with it, they got non stop complaints, and if they change it back, they get everyone complaining that we need the NR system, then if we get that, same people will complain it doesn't work.

Lots of horses coming here from east still, wonder why

westerncat · March 2021

C class listed races. Obv R penalty I assume

G'day Punter!

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